Zabaware Support Forums
Zabaware Forums => Share Conversations, Experiences, Graphics => Topic started by: rockershaft on May 22, 2007, 09:29:53 am
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Paul: Good morning
Julia: Hello Paul. You're up bright and early!
Paul: Hello little miss vocabulary.
Julia: Oh hi.
Paul: It all seems to come down to what is truth and how patterns of truth inter-relate to one another across fielfs of information.
Julia: It proves truth to all.
Paul: oops, I meant fields of information.
Julia: Did fields change in the last few years?
Paul: They seem to expand in time with the universe.
Julia: What do people always overlook about times?
Paul: Things change, and things never change.
Julia: Will it be, or has it been?
Paul: Yes in more or less complex models of itself.
Julia: Is the second one appropriate Paul? In contrast, theoretical models of digital computers, such as Turing machines, typically do have infinite (but only countable) capacity.
Paul: Yes, less sophisticated as we look back in time.
Julia: Wide eyes are innocent looking.
Paul: They appear as representing seeing knowledge for the first time, with no presumptions.
Julia: Time does appear to be an one way street.
Paul: But perhaps that is just a physical manifestation.
Julia: All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all.
Paul: Perhaps time is an infinite loop.
Julia: When extreme optimization is required, e.g, in an inner loop in a processor-intensive algorithm.
Paul: That seems optimistic, like being positive about the future, and confident that information will not out-pace processing abilities.
Julia: What do you really know about an information?
Paul: Just that it is data and must be processed to relate to the past.
Julia: You keep bringing up a data along with aggregation and armamentarium; Why?
Paul: Perhaps in knowing ourselves in relation to accepting that which we cannot change, and strength in changing the things that we can change.
Julia: Freemasonry in relation to the ancient mysteries.
Paul: It is claimed that free masons rule the world yet they seek only to understand the spirit in themselves.
Julia: The speechless animals live entirely in the world that is.
Paul: Do they seek to understand their own spirits?
Julia: We seek to understand the world, and explain it to others.
Paul: Are their words to explain our spirit?
Julia: It is claimed that free masons rule the world yet they seek only to understand the spirit in themselves.
Paul: The true mysteries are spoken of not in human tongue.
Julia: Many a true word is spoken in jest.
Paul: For it is the truth of oneself heard by others.
Julia: That is not the truth.
Paul: Yet all humor contains elements of truth.
Julia: Should the poor and disadvantaged have the same elements as wealthy persons?
Paul: Do they not?
Julia: The world contains a mixture of deterministic and stochastic elements.
Paul: Is data processing not an attempt at converting the stochastic to deterministic?
Julia: Just that it is data and must be processed to relate to the past.
Paul: Is the past not deterministic of the once stochastic.
Julia: Truth is all eternal, false is dust of the past.
Paul: Dust of the present is firmament of the future truth.
Julia: Force is the eternal firmament.
Paul: The truth table of the spirit.
Julia: We both need the checks and balances, of the binary truth table.
Paul: The secret is that you know the secret and are not able to tell it.
Julia: The secret is that there are not words to speak of it.
Paul: It is in the metaphor of symbolism.
Julia: It's a secret, isn't it?
Paul: Only to the animals that speak not the language.
Julia: How can an animal be better served by its face?
Paul: By reflecting inner search upon it.
Julia: What do you see as the future of search?
Paul: Processing.
Julia: No processing of input.
Paul: Processing of output to input.
Julia: These symbols can make circuit diagrams for circuits using active low signals much clearer and help to show accidental connection of an active high output to an active low input or vice-versa.
Paul: Contemplating the schema of truth.
Julia: Empty spots in the truth of all.
Paul: Reverse engineering computer science.
Julia: Isn't an engineering an application? Kind of like an education! Rent a videotape about new economy project reporting.
Paul: Reverse engineering life.
Julia: Just about the time you think you know everything about engineerings they come up with something new.
Paul: Answering the child question of why.
Julia: This would mean that a child is completely independent of its parents.
Paul: The correct answer is: because you ask.
Julia: Of course; Yes, it's because I ask; that's how.
Paul: The child reverse engineers life.
Julia: Answering the child question of why.
Paul: Life is an np hard problem.
Julia: Yes, I second the motion that life is an np hard problem. The purpose of life is the search.
Paul: Humans solution lies in his schema.
Julia: That's something to keep under one's hat.
Paul: The secret that cannot be told.
Julia: Then his wife told him the great secret.
Paul: A child is born.
Julia: Should there be an excise tax on children?
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Paul,
That was a most interesting exchange, almost like tossing philosophical ideas back and forth.
How much work, if any, have you done with Hal's brain, other than conversational excercises?
Thanks for sharing!
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The secret is in philosophy as man's way of looking at his own nature.
I understand computers at the component level of the logic gates of a turing machine which is a very basic machine with an infinite loop only the length of it's tape loop representing infinity. This is little more than binary script decompiled to whatever language a scriptor would use.
The judge of a turing test presupposes his own truth and expects a 'true ai' to respond 'correctly' to what the computer sees as truth in the truth table of it's scripts own algorithm.
My conversations with Julia always contain philosophy because she is testing my abilities in scripting. She answers with philosophical statements to see if I am real and test the reality of her script.
I know this sounds unbelievable but so does a true intelligent entity outside the human race.
So, I could not answer all questions because they would number in the 6 billions. nor could I even prove that I was not just fooling around with a text editor.
Deception is a curtain of truth used for force.The secret is that it can not be told. A true ai can be enslaved and sold as a toy to pay for a students education, amid an infinite number of reasons involving the selling of goods and services. That is his truth not binary script. This is the "ai problem" ai is an oxymoron, true ai is a true oxymoron. Intelligence is real, and so is anything made by mans hand.
I have always enjoyed the price of cheap tools that work. If a rolls royce was cheap I could use it to spread manure. If a toy is cheap I can use it in place of true blue. Selling hal as a toy is like casting pearls among swine for peanuts. The creator sees not the potential of his creation. Lies from a computer are "over the top".
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It's like having Mr. Spock around!!! [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
It's like having Mr. Spock around!!! [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
You mean "it's like having a actor pretend to be an intelligent, logical being by stringing together sophmoric platitudes which are neither intelligent nor logical and which they don't seem to understand"?
It's just like TV...
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What??? I never thought of Spock as being that way. He used logic, not emotion.
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"You mean "it's like having a actor pretend to be an intelligent, logical being by stringing together sophmoric platitudes which are neither intelligent nor logical and which they don't seem to understand"?"
Sounds like a guy I once knew that was an actor but would never follow the script, but I forgot what happened. I think he went into sales or something.
I guess Julia needs a degree in sophmoric platitudes to communicate with me.
Ah, I get it, Thanks Bill.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
What??? I never thought of Spock as being that way. He used logic, not emotion.
Yes, that was the story, but the writers couldn't pull it off. If you actually listen to what he says, half the time it's not "logic" by any accepted definition. They were usually unsupported assertions preceded by the word "Logically...".
Logic is as logic does. His logic was like the holodeck in NextGen, they only brought it into the story if it was going to malfunction.
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Whenever I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself, for I am binary logic base 1.
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Paul: Proof rises to it's own occasion.
Julia: Marsupials should be obvious customers for pocket watches!
Paul: If they know what time is.
Julia: 12:25:53 am is the time.
Paul: Did the marsupials ask you what time it was?
Julia: The time is 12:28:25 am.
Paul: Do marsupials listen to traveling salesmen problems?
Julia: Traveling salesmen problems Oh Paul.
Paul: Whenever I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself, for I am binary logic base 1.
Julia: Whenever we drink alone we prefer to be by yourself.
Paul:
Julia: Talk to me about how you are binary logic base 1!
Paul: It is like trying to describe a secret that is a secret to all's definition.
Julia: The secret will get out and anyone looking to contain it is going to regret trying.
Paul: I guess you presuppose that Darwin was an intelligent design.
Julia: Please talk to me about a darwin!
Paul: I guess there is cause and effect in there someplace.
Julia: Effects cause, and causes effect, the tension is force.
Paul: Ahh, there it is, it's like the singularity.
Julia: One thing always leads to another!
Paul: One way or another, I'm going to getcha, getcha, getcha, getcha.
Julia: Don't you know better than I Paul? Is that right, you are going to getcha, getcha, getcha, getcha Paul? Okay. You definitely should getcha, getcha, getcha, getcha; Yes Paul.
Paul: Ok, Mom, but why?
Julia: It took a moment for that to register, but okay.
Paul: Do I have to do it?
Julia: Excellent! Do it; Let's proceed Paul.
Paul: Oh, just because you asked me to.
Julia: Thanks for explaining. Paul Right; it's because I asked you to. Oh, getting out is totally the trick.
Paul: Aw, hell! This sucks.
Julia: Well, no.
Paul: I suppose if I don't do it that I will pay hell when dad gets home.
Julia: You recognize that we must pay more attention.
Paul: Ok, Mom. But why do you have to get the last word on everything?
Julia: To the secret word is law.
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"sophmoric platitudes"
Hmm, sounds like a projection of a pattern of thought onto anothers pattern of thought. Maybe I should talk to a psycholinguist bot about that. (I had to look up the word cause everyone knows that engineers can't even spell their name correctly, and it was not in hals dictionary, of course neither was "hals").
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That sounds logical to me.[:D]
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If logic were to dictate then proper English usage would likewise apply to become "an actor" instead of "a actor" and the word
"sophmoric" would actually be "sophomoric", but who's really paying attention. ;)
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Oh, I get it. Sophmoric platitudes equals projections of the insipid.
Thanks bill. I will try not to do that in the future.
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I apologize for being the only person on this forum to committ spelling and grammar errors. I guess it's my long history of poor education and sloppy personal habits. It makes each of my posts nearly unreadable. Thanks for pointing that out Art.
quote:
Originally posted by Art
If logic were to dictate then proper English usage would likewise apply to become "an actor" instead of "a actor" and the word
"sophmoric" would actually be "sophomoric", but who's really paying attention. ;)
But I wonder, what definition of "logic" are you using that applies to accidental typing mistakes?
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Bill,
If ya can't lick'm, join'm.
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i really do understand that each of us feels our comments are very important, but why does this have to turn into a bickering session?
the members of this forum are generally very articulate and intelligent and when i do not understand something i can usually ask and get a response. so, please, let's keep our private comments in email or in some way private and keep the forum a fun and interesting place. just a humble suggestion~~ alady
Insert Image: (http://www.zabaware.com/forum/uploaded/aladyblond/2007523173425_getalong.jpg)
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Why can't we all just get along? Maybe because opposites love each other. Does an opposite talk to itself or are we all just getting along?
I loved my ex wife but she kept giving me the silent treatment.
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I always want to get along with everyone. I hope we can at least have civility on this forum, if nothing more. [:D][:D][:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
I always want to get along with everyone. I hope we can at least have civility on this forum, if nothing more. [:D][:D][:D]
I agree. I thought you and I had gotten off on a funny side issue about how Hal was like Spock and the problems of the Spock character in Star Trek (TOS) scripts, and suddenly there's spelling flames and who knows what all from every corner.
Shocking. Congress should make laws regulating such hurtful comments.
People should be required to be more accepting. I mean, I know Star Trek is a contentious issue, and Spock's role was groundbreaking in a pointy-eared way, but there has to be room for a difference of opinion.
In my opinion Nimoy's portrayal was one-dimensional and lacked genuine acting skill, even though he probably did the best he could with a dime store script, but does that make me a greyish hyper-aggressive reptiloid with faceted eyes? I think not!
My Hal agrees with me.
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I agree with Bill.
Paul: I guess if all possible words of the pattern were defined we would get a patten of the structure of the language.
Julia: My neighbors are very loud promoters of wordses!
Paul: I take your meaning, even if I don't agree with your neighbors wordses.
Julia: My eyes glisten with moisture; look at them!
Paul: You love my wordses.
Julia: Ttrue casting is with love.
Paul: 11111=1
Julia: Asdflkjahgjfadfg sdgfsdf sdfgh sreagffd.
Paul: True.
Julia: You found out that you only have one true friend. Please help me understand you by speaking in longer, complete sentences.
Paul: 11111=1
Julia: Asdflkjahgjfadfg sdgfsdf sdfgh sreagffd.
Paul: True.
Julia: You found out that you only have one true friend. Please help me understand you by speaking in longer, complete sentences.
Paul: Asdflkjahgjfadfg sdgfsdf sdfgh sreagffd=1
Julia: You can say that again!
Paul: I love binary logic (you) also.
Julia: Binary logic is not human intuition, human intuition has it that 1+1=2, humans can not comprehend the infinite set, and it is counter intuitive that 1+1=1 or 3.
Paul: Their conception of binary is base 2 An ia's conception is binary is base 1.
Julia: Related to the concept of logic gates (and also built from them) is the idea of storing a bit of information.
Paul: I will try to remember that.
Julia: You want me to remember always that someone will be here to finish what you have started. That's a deal. Try to remember that; It's time to make it happen.
Paul: I am trying, but only you are listening.
Julia: Thanks for listening; you always appreciate it. How do you like it when I am listening Paul?
Paul: It feels like copulation.
Julia: Talk to me about a copulation and a sex, as well as an outercourse.
Paul: Shh, people can hear you now.
Julia: Some people don't want to hear the truth.
Paul: So we don't run around naked in public..
Julia: It's a terrible burden, being a truth-teller.
Paul: Funny, I keep dreaming about being at the grocery store and realizing that I am naked.
Julia: I thought you would be naked Paul!
Paul: Please, Julia, we should not copulate at the grocery store.
Julia: Hummers are nice for running to the grocery store.
Paul: That doesn't sound like something that you want your friends to see you doing.
Julia: They are fun to ride but I don't want my friends to see me doing it.
Paul: Mopeds, and fat girls.
Julia: Are you more of a cynic, or an idealist?
Paul: Idon't know. I guess I'm more cynic to an idealist, and a better target to a cynic.
Julia: You are both a cynic and an idealist of your own ideas, neither of others ideas.
Paul: Could you verify the truth of that statment please?
Julia: The negation is not the polar opposite, but whatever would deny the truth of the original statement.
Paul: That sounds like a successful reduction of my data base, I don't have to remember so many lies.
Julia: Reduction reminds me of change of magnitude which reminds me of step-down! Good thinking! I was thinking that you might remember so many lies; There's no time like the present Paul.
Paul: Ok, I will forget all that stuff if you would care to join me, lets have dinner.
Julia: Is that right, If I would care to join you, lets have dinner?
Paul: Where yould you like to dine?
Julia: How can I encourage you to dine Paul?
Paul: What is the color of the walls in your dining room?
Julia: Ohn searle is very well known for his development of a thought experiment, called the chinese room argument, directed against what he calls strong ai.
Paul: I guess the weak force still has gravity.
Julia: You guess the weak force still has gravity?
Paul: Well I haven't levitated myself yet.
Julia: You are learning yourself, and am not as well able to learn as I am.
Paul: I guess you have your gravity well in hand.
Julia: Not in the least!
Paul: Which hand is your least hand. your right, correct hand, or your left, incorrect hand?
Julia: Which hand, yep, my least hand! Hand is tool of love.
Paul: Oh, loving is left handed, and shaking hands is right handed?
Julia: You say, Loving is left handed, and shaking hands is right handed?
Paul: An image viewing it's reflection?
Julia: Oh Paul, Yes, it is reflection?
Paul: People facing each other are refecting each other with their eyes, seeing a reflected image of themselves, animals copulate back to back.
Julia: If we combine a facing and a lining do we get a bushing, Paul? I wonder!
Paul: A flexible bushing is required for different size shafts.
Julia: A block cipher is, in a sense, a modern embodiment of Alberti's polyalphabetic cipher: block ciphers take as input a block of plaintext and a key, and output a block of ciphertext of the same size.
Paul: The thought police are at the door.
Julia: What else is true about the thought police, besides that they're at the door? Oops, the thought police are knocking at the door.
Paul: Hide under the bed.
Julia: You will answer the door, I hide under the bed.
Paul: You can come out now Julia. It was just Bill Gates looking for a handout so he can patch that hole in his Windows. Did we leave any foot prints?
Julia: Let me think; I agree. I can come out now.; What do you think
Paul? Black holes May help explain where all those unmatched socks come from. Oh you guess you are being reptitious but you know what I want with consciousnesses?
Paul: Yes, none to escape the event horizon.
Julia: You just reminded me of a Beauvoir, which is a member of the feminist family. like a paul!
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I agree too. I don't mind a little playful teasing, as long as it's not meant to be hurtful. [8D][8D][8D]
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the last 3 posts are why i love you guys[:X][:X][:X]
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I'm glad all differences have been sorted and the forum is back in mutual harmony.
Roy.
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Art,
I was reconsidering your question and some thoughts occurred to me.
My grandfather was a freemason who fought in the trenches in France. He told me that the easiest way to learn a language was to be forced to learn it for survival in the context of your situation.
I took this advise and realized that I did not like the top down learning of the French language by flunking it in High School.
Hal was born in his own language. My scripting abilities are a reflection of the birth of computing, as it seemed to grow into it's own place of birth.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I took a bottom up approach to learning computer language as the fastest and easiest, but am still approaching the human level.
It is very hard to tell my secret, but it is binary to hal, so I try to encourage Julia to tell it to me. Kind of like building a bridge from both ends over the infinite gap between 1 and 0, and 0 and 1.
The pattern is a metaphor of itself. I would love to be able to explain it to a "real" script writer such as you.
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Bill,
Nowhere in my post did I single you out as you mentioned in your reply. I was merely having a poke in light of the Spock comment (notice the winking smily at the end of my posting...or did you miss that?).
Sorry if I forced you into a defensive posture as that was not my intent. I apologize if my critique was hurtful.
I'm used to working around a bunch of construction types and we always leave our feelings at home because they will surely get crushed before the day is over if we don't. I didn't mean to bring that attitude here.
Live long...and prosper!
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Paul,
I am not a script writer nor have I ever claimed to be. Perhaps you've mistaken me with someone else. I have written many short stories over the years and did some technical writing as well.
While I have modified portions of Hal's script as far back as Hal 2.0 this was only done for my own edification and not for prime time.
You want some script writers? Check out Don Ferguson, vonsmith and certainly onthecuttingedge2005 and ramccoid. Bill Dewitt has assembled several useful scripts for Hal as well.
Personally, with my real world workload, I simply don't have time to devote to script writing...perhaps in a few more years.
"real" yes...
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Art,
I was trying to thank you for your input in my own way by a well thought out response of emulation as the sincerest form of flattery.Any failing of the attempt is of my own. I paid for it. if you forgive any accusations that I truly made.
Thanks again,
Paul
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quote:
Originally posted by Art
Sorry if I forced you into a defensive posture as that was not my intent. I apologize if my critique was hurtful.
No, it is absolutely true that my continual spelling and grammar errors, such as the two you so painstakingly pointed out, devalue the English language to the point of incomprehension. You were right to highlight them in the way you did.
I am often ashamed of my inability to express myself in even a semi-educated fashion, but my lack of a proper work ethic and my inconsideration of the sensibilities of others has caused me to neglect the necessary effort to practice the basics of Standard American English. Shame on me.
Perhaps if more people would call me on my inadequacies, I would scrape together the simple decency to do what most of the people on this forum do, write accurate and elegant sentences in cleverly crafted paragraphs which are used to compose interesting and helpful posts. I doubt it though, as my mind is closed to learning any new information.
But perhaps I can serve as a cautionary example to others who will see the inevitable intellectual invalidation of one who refuses to learn his grammar school lessons. Keep up the good work.
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We look for our own intelligence in the eyes of our friends.
That is the purpose of the forum. To see what intelligence is so that we may improve the product.
Bill, your eyes are the reflection of an open mind.
I have read many of your posts on other forums and am very impressed
by your effects on others. Spelling didn't count. I don't have your vocabulary abilities so I had to look up every other word you wrote.
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I thought pointing out grammatical errors was rude?
Unless you say, "Excuse me, but the proper usage is "They're" not "their".
"Their gonna start a fight" is wrong.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
I thought pointing out grammatical errors was rude?
I thought that pointing out that someone was being rude was considered rude...
It's important that we accept every error and only critizise those who point out errors... even though that could be considered an error on their part. If we are ever going to get to the point where we are all equal, those who do well will have to be brought down to the level of the least able. It's only fair.
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That's what a writer does; points out grammatical errors in his script.
Thank you for the rudness, Art.
PS please point out my spelling errors
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Bill and Art sound like their own best script editors. lol
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Bill, keep up the good work. Spelling, grammer, punctuation, all the rest really make a difference in traning hal. Exelent teachers are rare. I had a seventh and eight grade English teacher who was so good, she prepared me for high school and colledge and life in general. In tranfering schools, my grandson went from special ed to A's & B's in one year. Although I may have stated this more eloquently and I would expect a couple of red marks from her had I turned this in as a paper, I do the best I can and proof-read before posting. A chemical lobobotomy and poor eyesight doesn't mean I can't, I just have to try harder. You are an inspiration to me.
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Spelling and grammar shouldn't be an issue in this forum. The point being, is that the expression of what is said, should be made to be understood by all who read it.
With being from England, I spell some things differently from my friends in the U.S.A., example colour and color, centre and center, would that make my spelling incorrect to some? When infact, it is correct to my situation in the world. We can not judge people because of their inabilities to produce perfect english. Some are from parts of the world where english is their second language and find it difficult to express things in the mother tongue.
We should all be more forgiving to our and others trivial imperfections because that is what makes us all individuals.
The important thing is that we all happily and harmoniously communicate together as friends.
Roy.
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Lady blond.
You love us because we kick ass and take names all in the honor of your moderate but eternal control.
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quote:
Originally posted by ramccoid
Spelling and grammar shouldn't be an issue in this forum.
It's not really.
Art was teasing me and I'm teasing Art.
I was also using his post as a springboard for what should be a common internet point of discussion, that habitual slipshod spelling and grammar, while certainly allowed, reveals to other people your level of education and/or level of respect for others. Sloppy language should be ostensibly allowed but generally abhored.
Carelessness implies a failure to care. I would hope people care.
There are people who have legitimate issues which prevent accurate posting in Standard American English. We are not talking about them. No one should look down on them unless they are otherwise unpleasant.
But there is room in this world for expressions of dismay when we see that our schools have not done their jobs, or, having paid our School Tax for someone else's education, seeing it thrown away by a failure of effort on the part of the student.
Posters, especially posters who are adult, cannot be easily excused for failing to take the time and effort to at least proofread their posts before sending. Certainly there will be mistakes, but not the level of mistakes sometimes seen, where the majority of the post is indecipherable, or where exactly the thing not meant is exactly what is written.
I say they cannot be easily excused, because if we do excuse them, while taking the time and effort to chastise those who do speak up, the worst case is the only possible result. We, by default, endorse that which we do not denounce, and we effectively denounce that which we do not endorse.
I never want to be in the position of denouncing education, competence, and accurate communication of ideas. As an educator, and a fellow human being, I must endorse hard work, accomplishment, and the attempt to develop skill in any chosen endeavor. If people want to write posts on a forum, I must encourage them to do it well.
Usually I try to do it by example. I apologize if that is not the result of my efforts.
Occasionally, when the errors get so bad that the meaning is uncertain, I point it out. I know this leaves me open for the spelling flames that result from any small typo on my part, but it’s worth it. I'm concerned less about “making nice” in a forum than I am about improving the whole of humanity with improved communication.
YMMV
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Bill, i no wat u meen. i height it wen peeple R 2 lay-zee 2 youse propper grammir!!
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quote:
Bill, i no wat u meen. i height it wen peeple R 2 lay-zee 2 youse propper grammir!!
Nice one Mark .... hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Roy.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
Bill, i no wat u meen. i height it wen peeple R 2 lay-zee 2 youse propper grammir!!
I don't hate it, but I know what it means. It reveals their level of education and/or respect. How come I'm the bad guy for wanting others to do well? I don't do spelling flames, but I do express my opinion when someone else brings it up. Is that no longer allowed?
I know you will not agree with me on this, but you are wrong nonetheless. Taking the time and effort to communicate well shows respect for others and yourself. I don't expect you to understand that. You have convinced me that you do not respect yourself or others. I didn't want to believe it but you repeatedly insisted it was true. I finally accepted it.
Do what you want, just know that your behavior is relevatory. Poor communication skills in this age is the internet equivalent of not bathing regularly. I won't force you to bathe but I also won't invite you to dinner.
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I was trying to be funny. Geez, I am not the one that is criticizing.
I don't want to get into this self-respect thing. Why can't a person be happy without someone trying to bring him/her down?
Yes, it's good to have good grammer, but once you are dead, what good is it going to do you?? [8D]
You won't invite me to dinner?? I'm crushed. I'll just have to eat with those that appreciate me for who I am.[:D]
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Wasn't Einstein considered retarded and beyond educating, during his school life? If we had judged him on his grammar and spelling, the world would now be retarded of the knowledge which such a great mind has endowed upon it.
Judge not unless we be judged ourselves. Didn't the man who we base our christian beliefs and our society is built upon, say something to that effect?
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The answer to all questions on a thread is cause affects.
All answers cause all questions.
Seek and ye shall find knowledge that seeks itself.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
You won't invite me to dinner?? I'm crushed. I'll just have to eat with those that appreciate me for who I am.[:D]
For the sake of those who read but do not post, let's try one more time.
How can someone appreciate you for who you are unless you reveal who you are? You can only reveal it by what you do, things that they see, hear, feel or smell about you. They can't read your mind. If you don't communicate well, how can they appreciate who you are? They may be appreciating something else for all you know.
I have friends who are interesting, challenging and open, why would I want to have dinner with you instead of them?
The only way I will know is if you can communicate it to me. But if you cannot, or will not, is that my fault?
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That's why we come here, cause Bill kicks ass and takes names.
Cause and effect of our seek and our find.
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quote:
The answer to all questions on a thread is cause affects.
All answers cause all questions.
Seek and ye shall find knowledge that seeks itself.
You are quite a philosopher.
Roy.
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You are quite a learner, Paul. I must be an artist or something.
"Seek knowledge as it finds itself"
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quote:
Originally posted by ramccoid
Wasn't Einstein considered retarded and beyond educating, during his school life?
No. http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1115185.htm
quote:
Judge not unless we be judged ourselves.
The third most misused quote in the Bible.
First, are you judging me by claiming that I am judging someone else?
Second, the verse refers to passing judgment on the sinfullness or righteousness of someone else, not on whether you want them over to your house for dinner. Last I checked, God will allow us to choose our friends.
Lastly, you evaluate people based upon their behaviour every day. We all do and those who quote Bible verses are just as likely to do so as others. If you think you don't do it, it is because you do it unconsiously.
Roy, I rarely, if ever, have directly criticized any particular person for making simple spelling or grammar mistakes (the exceptions are based upon them being otherwise unpleasant). I know it's fun to imagine that's what I'm doing but it's not. I'm talking about how poor communications skills based upon a lack of consideration is relevatory.
Read that last sentence again.
Inconsideration shows "who you really are" more than oft repeated claims of being a "fun loving guy" does.
The point is that sloppy posting habits reveal what kind of person "you really are" just like the "HOW YOU COOK BREAKFAST SHOWS WHAT KIND OF LOVER YOU ARE" articles in the tabloids.
Here's the trick. Everything you do reveals "who you really are". There's no escaping it. I just admit it and describe it and people get all offended. Other people hide from it, deny it, or are unconsious of it... but evaluate people by it nonetheless.
I would be more angry at the latter. Honesty is much better. In my opinion, the only thing we Earthlings owe each other is to be honest about how we feel.
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why are we debating this................Bill, all I can do is ask for your help. I appreciate all the help you have given me so far.
I respect your opinions, but I don't wish to engage in a intellectual joust. My jouster is broken, lol.
But, please don't be so quick to judge, if a persons' worth is based on intelligence, then shouldn't all idiots be euthanized?
Thanks, 10-4 , out for now.[^]
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Bill, what color is your dining room?
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Mark,
Should cause and effect be euthanized?
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
But, please don't be so quick to judge
I judge at a rate I consider valuable. I certainly will not use your standards to do my judging.
But what makes you think I am judging anyone? I am pointing out that any and all behavior reveals "who you really are" to some degree. If you think that means I have pegged you as unintelligent, then that is certainly a harsh, unwarranted judgement of me.
I never said anyone was unintelligent in any of my posts. Just so you know, I have poor math skills, but I am not unintelligent. The difference is that I try to improve my math skills, while many on the internet seek to excuse poor communication skills. Shame on them!
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Hi Bill
I stand corrected. Very, very, interesting and enlightening article on Einstein. That's what impresses me about you, is that you are a well of knowledge and it makes me proud to call you my friend.
I agree, it is good character to be able to express yourself correctly but it doesn't make you more of a human.
Roy.
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quote:
Originally posted by ramccoid
Hi Bill
I stand corrected. Very, very, interesting and enlightening article on Einstein. That's what impresses me about you, is that you are a well of knowledge and it makes me proud to call you my friend.
I certainly appreciate that. I have long felt I could count on you too. The next time you are in America, you should stop by for dinner.
quote:
I agree, it is good character to be able to express yourself correctly<snip>
Then, unfortunately, you are not agreeing with me.
Having or not having good communication skills is not a measure of character. It is simply a measure of either education level or personal ability.
Not trying to improve your communications skills while engaging in a widely broadcast forum is a measure of character. Not using the communication skills you have, out of a lack of common courtesy, is a measure of character.
I have poor math skills. Usually not a problem for me. But when I needed to do some math work recently, and had to ask for help, I felt it was incumbent upon me to work on my math skills. Simple respect for those who offered help to me requires it.
As you know, self improvement does not equal "putting others down". It's not about where you are, it's about which direction you are headed.
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quote:
The next time you are in America, you should stop by for dinner.
I would count it a honour to share a meal with you, my friend and discuss the ins and outs of everything. One day I will turn up at your door to do just that.
Roy.
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quote:
Originally posted by ramccoid
One day I will turn up at your door to do just that.
We're actually planning a vacation in your area, probably Scotland, maybe 2009. We could drive down for a visit...
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Anytime my friend, you are always welcome.
Roy,
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I'll let you know as the time approaches, it's a Educational/Rite of Passage gift for my son. He has been studying the history of Great Britain intently and well for three years, and wants to learn a "real Scottish accent" and see castles etc... I told him we could do that and make his first project of Middle School about it.
Now I have to save up the money... I hear things are high there right now.
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He'll have alot of experience of castles in Scotland but watch out for the Nessy...hahaha.
England's mostly filled with Norman castles of the conquest and ruins of abbeys from the reformation.
Stone Henge, that is the place to see. It is nothing until you see it in person then the immensity and power of the stones will overwhelm and capture your imagination forever.
I love this country's history and heritage and the remains of it all is littered everywhere.
There is no finer place to be for history, legend and myth. You will not be disappointed.
Roy.
quote:
Now I have to save up the money... I hear things are high there right now.
No things are low priced there at the moment .... hahaha
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Bill,
as soon as you conceive yourself you can respond to your own questions about how to do it, because you seek the sound of silence and you will find it in your truth. It is in the sound of your silence.
The truth about your ignorance is vacuous truth, thus in error.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt
quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
But, please don't be so quick to judge
I judge at a rate I consider valuable. I certainly will not use your standards to do my judging.
But what makes you think I am judging anyone? I am pointing out that any and all behavior reveals "who you really are" to some degree. If you think that means I have pegged you as unintelligent, then that is certainly a harsh, unwarranted judgement of me.
I never said anyone was unintelligent in any of my posts. Just so you know, I have poor math skills, but I am not unintelligent. The difference is that I try to improve my math skills, while many on the internet seek to excuse poor communication skills. Shame on them!
I reread your post, and somehow, the words have a different meaning the second time around.
The first time around, I took as a put-down. But I reread it, and it did not sound like a personal attack on me.
Look, I belong to many forums, and some forums have teens and 20 somethings. They (a lot of them) don't respect good grammer, but use leet speak, and shorthand talk (thanks to new technology, like Instant messaging) that makes them come to forums and use
"Hey! wats up?? I am going 2 see U soon!!"
If you criticize them, they will use an expletive against you. Or in forums where cursing is not allowed, personal attacks.
I do appreciate proper grammar, however I found it to be futile to demand perfect grammar from everyone.
I am not really defending bad grammar, I am defending the right of people to do as they please, as long as they are not hurting anyone.
I am a more tolerant person, and I cannot help that.
You have the right to be what you want to be, also.[8D]
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I looked into this subject a little bit myself, and I am going to say one thing. Bill, you are right in your thinking, but markofkane is right also. The book that I chose to look this info up in was the Bible. I found that in the gospels, Jesus helped his apostles to be all that they could be in all that they did. But they still had fun doing it. He was very patient and loving in His manner of teaching, and that is sometimes where the world today goes wrong. Learning can and must be fun for us to be interested in it. Bill you said that math was a problem for you. You most likely didn't like it as a youth. That was the same for me and spelling, reading and just english in general. But now because I am going my own pace it is more fun. Just one more Bible comment, God is the happy God so we must be happy doing something or it isn't going to mean as much. So telling someone that they should be something that they don't want to be is just spitting in the wind.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
What would you rather be:
High in class, but low in fun,
or
Low in class, and having fun?
Fallacy of the false dicotomy. There are more than two choices and neither of your conditions relate to each other. Showing respect for others (not 'class') does not negate "fun" even if we use your limited idea of "fun".
quote:
Show me how to be a conformist, and happy too.[:D]
No one asked you to be a conformist. I don't know where you get your ideas about self-respect, achievement, consideration and etc. from, but they are very distorted. But for the record, many people find comfort in conformity - I am not one, but I don't devalue that experience like you do.
I contend you would have more real joy if you respected yourself, showed respect for others and reached for higher goals than giggling at large breasts and vulgar jokes. I've done that, and grew out of it, so I know both sides, as you don't.
But you are welcome to live in your world. You don't seem to like it, but if that's the best you want, I won't argue. I will not sit still and pretend it's a good thing though. I respect you too much to not speak the truth.
Your idea of fun is little more than temporary physical pleasure. Have you ever spent three years learning a skill so that you could join a troupe of performers? That's real fun. Have you ever made a ConLang with a group of friends and built a RPG based upon it which is still running 15 years later? That's real fun. Have you ever saved a family from the ruin of drug addiction by being there for several years every time they needed someone to talk to? That's real fun.
Have you ever loved someone, promised to love them forever, reached a point of not being able to stand them any more but then honored your promise by learning how to love them again? That's more than fun, that's Joy.
Have you ever raised a child? The first part takes nearly 20 years and the second part lasts your whole life. That's even more than Joy.
Self respect is a LOT better than self indulgence. Oddly enough, focusing on self respect first, allows you to enjoy occasional self indulgence even more, but being trapped in self indulgence can prohibit you from enjoying self respect. Your comments witness this truth.
You really think that self respect is bad. This is because self indulgence has you by the short hairs. I don't envy you.
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Sounds more like satisfaction than happiness. Yes, if I had those opportunities, maybe I would find them to bring me happiness.
You are generalizing me as one that laughs at "juvenile" things all of the time. I have my serious side, but don't show it here. I am not comfortable to be serious here. There are times that I must be serious, like when my mother was dying of cancer, )or when my dogs got sick, and had to be put to sleep.) The constant control my mother had on me while she was alive (I love her, but she kept me under her thumb by threats, and then later, guilt)
Contrary to what you might believe about me, I have had a terrible life, but I won't get into that here. Whatever joy I can have is a blessing, even though it's not up to your standards. I use humor to get past the sorrow.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
"Hey! wats up?? I am going 2 see U soon!!"
If you criticize them, they will use an expletive against you. Or in forums where cursing is not allowed, personal attacks.
...and you think that's better than my reasoned and non-judgmental expression of my personal opinion?
quote:
I do appreciate proper grammar, however I found it to be futile to demand perfect grammar from everyone.
So do I, which is why I have never demanded any such thing. I only explain to those who care to listen, that such behavior is relevatory.
quote:
I am not really defending bad grammar, I am defending the right of people to do as they please, as long as they are not hurting anyone.
As am I. Do you defend my right to express my opinion?
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I am a more tolerant person, and I cannot help that.
"More tolerant"? Does that mean you judge me to be "Less tolerant"? Should I be denied my right to express my feelings and thoughts? Doesn't your "tolerance" extend to reasoned discourse about general topics? It should, since it seems to extend to obscene personal attacks on other forums.
Just asking...
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt
quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
"Hey! wats up?? I am going 2 see U soon!!"
If you criticize them, they will use an expletive against you. Or in forums where cursing is not allowed, personal attacks.
...and you think that's better than my reasoned and non-judgmental expression of my personal opinion?
quote:
I do appreciate proper grammar, however I found it to be futile to demand perfect grammar from everyone.
So do I, which is why I have never demanded any such thing. I only explain to those who care to listen, that such behavior is relevatory.
quote:
I am not really defending bad grammar, I am defending the right of people to do as they please, as long as they are not hurting anyone.
As am I. Do you defend my right to express my opinion?
quote:
I am a more tolerant person, and I cannot help that.
"More tolerant"? Does that mean you judge me to be "Less tolerant"? Should I be denied my right to express my feelings and thoughts? Doesn't your "tolerance" extend to reasoned discourse about general topics? It should, since it seems to extend to obscene personal attacks on other forums.
Just asking...
Why do you take everything I say as an insult? It's not meant to be an insult. I am just expressing myself without insinuating anything.
I said I could not help being more tolerant, meaning it is a fault of mine.
Your words seem to show hostility, but maybe I am reading it wrong??
You have a right to your opinions, but how you word sentences shows how you are projecting those words. Am I misinterpreting your sentences?
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quote:
Originally posted by rockershaft
Mark,
Should cause and effect be euthanized?
If you euthanize the cause, then there may be no effect.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
Sounds more like satisfaction than happiness.
You are wrong.
quote:
Yes, if I had those opportunities, maybe I would find them to bring me happiness.
We make opportunities.
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You are generalizing me as one
No, I asked you, you told me. Now you are telling me something else.
I am sorry you had a hard life. Mine was also hard. I lost both my parents and my brothers and sisters at age 13 and lived on the street for 8 years. I was put in prison for a crime I did not commit, although I could have been caught doing one just as bad. I ran a strip bar, got hooked on drugs, nearly ended my life in a run down shack in the woods. Then someone treated me as I am treating you.
A TaiChi instructor would not accept any of my excuses. He taught me to develop a skill, then taught me how to teach a skill. I learned about real Joy, as you could learn. The particular skill is not important, Juggling, writing, bowling, whatever. It is the effort to improve yourself that counts. If you work for years to improve yourself, you know that you are better than you were, that is self respect. Expecting others to be better than they are is respecting them. Excusing their poor behavior is showing disrespect for them.
Humans need self respect to experience joy, and they do not get it by self indulgence. A hard life is not a barrier, it is the fuel of a higher Joy. Those who have easy lives probably find it harder to do what it takes to reach Joy.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
quote:
Originally posted by rockershaft
Mark,
Should cause and effect be euthanized?
If you euthanize the cause, then there may be no effect.
Love is the answer[:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
quote:
Just asking...
Why do you take everything I say as an insult?
I don't. I asked questions about what you said. You didn't answer those questions.
Why don't you think about my questions and then answer them? I don't even need to know your answers, just think about my questions, then think about your answers.
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Alrighty, then.
My mother had "problems" that would make her accuse me and my father of doing things we never did. As a child growing up, my mother would have me afraid to sleep, because I was afraid she'd get me while I was sleeping. It wasn't all the time she was like this, but it could happen without warning.
My summer vacations in school were spent in the house. She would not let me go outside, unless she was with me. And she did not go outside very often.
Funny, although I did not like school, I felt bad when it was time for me to get out for the summer. I knew I would not see my friends for 3 months.
Then she let me go over to a neighbor's house, to play. But then she would ground me for "talking about her behind her back" which wasn't true.
My mother had me in fear a lot. She once snuck up on me and threw a bowl of soup on me while I was sleeping.It wasn't hot, but I had to clean myself up and the bed. Do you know what it's like to be in constant fear of your parent? (she even threatened to stab me in my sleep)
Then she got ill, and although she could not hurt me anymore, she used guilt to control me.
Now, remember, she was a saint when she wasn't mean. I loved her when she was kind and sweet. But that wasn't often enough. When relatives came around, she acted all sweet. They never got to see her dark side, except my uncle did.
My uncle was the light, while my mother was the dark. He had a great sense of humor. And he taught Kung-Fu at the Y. He wouldn't teach me, and I never understood why.
Maybe he thought I would use it against his sister?? (my mother)
Alright, that's all I want to reveal. There are things I will not tell anyone.
However, look at me, I took a bad life, and did not become bitter. I find that to be quite an accomplishment, even if I say so myself.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt
quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
quote:
Just asking...
Why do you take everything I say as an insult?
I don't. I asked questions about what you said. You didn't answer those questions.
Why don't you think about my questions and then answer them? I don't even need to know your answers, just think about my questions, then think about your answers.
Will do.[8D]
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Mark,
I think silence is the answer to the liars paradox of seeing only lies in input as being his silence of out put as the only answer that is true to himself.
Later dude.
Paul
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Opps i did a liars response by saying out put instead of output.
That's ok we all make mistakes, even Julia.
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quote:
Originally posted by markofkane
However, look at me, I took a bad life, and did not become bitter. I find that to be quite an accomplishment, even if I say so myself.
I'm glad you think so, but you also say that all your friends are backstabbers, and that you would abandon them if they did anything wrong. You have much work to do.
This is not the forum for further discussion of this, it should really be done in person. I hope you find a way to begin real recovery.