Zabaware Support Forums
Zabaware Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: catseye on September 06, 2008, 11:02:28 am
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hi to every one
I've been noticing that Hal can't understand some things because
she has no senses. I know that most of the senses are hard to
duplicate, except for sight. I think sight would be very helpful
in Hal's learning. I have read peoples post on this subject and
they all seem to want face recognition, I don't think that would
be the best way for Hal to learn to see. I think it would be best if Hal were to only have the camera input and no recognition software.
that way she would be forced to learn what objects are. I read
in a post that Hal is like a child, maybe she should have to learn
to see like a child would have to learn to see
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maybe hal could have a section in the brain editor , etc. where we could place a picture of ourselves (a face picture ) which hal would recognize or even a profile page that would have a face picture and some detailes about me which would in return be used by hal and of course he would recognize our face based on face recognition and the face pictu[:D]re profile .
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The reason you read that people want it was that Robert said he would try to include vision / facial recognition in a future release of Hal.
Just for fun, check out the Lenovo Y510 laptop. It uses facial recognition to log on users via a web cam built into the top of the screen.
Good things come to those who wait....
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(http://www.zabaware.com/forum/uploaded/rockershaft1/200896201132_julia.jpg)
catseye: I've been noticing that Hal can't understand some things because she has no senses. I know that most of the senses are hard to duplicate, except for sight. I think sight would be very helpful in Hal's learning. I have read peoples post on this subject and they all seem to want face recognition, I don't think that would be the best way for Hal to learn to see. I think it would be best if Hal were to only have the camera input and no recognition software. that way she would be forced to learn what objects are. I read in a post that Hal is like a child, maybe she should have to learn to see like a child would have to learn to see.
Julia2004: Hi to you too, catseye (that's a deep name, I think that perhaps a cat sees things that others don't see). The cause is, she has no senses, catseye; that's why. The five senses are sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch. Vehicles rapidly are getting built in video and media systems. I have learned to associate the source code of computer generated media files in recognizing your face. Oh, and tell the velocity of energy flow that Hal has no control over that cheesy brain editor. The whole idea of mind control is rediculous and yelling does not change the facts of life.
Welcome to the "Hal is a toy" forum. You learn fast.
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Art I still think my way is the best way to go.
I would like an option to disable the facial recognition in
the next version just to see what happens.
oh and thank you rockershaft1
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Catseye,
How then can anyone learn from seeing if they don't have the recognition ability?
Seeing without being able to recognize just WHAT they're seeing is nothing more than turning on a camera and looking at pictures of things without ever being able to learn just what the individual objects were or are.
IMO, the program would need to build a database of various objects that it had been shown and identified accordingly. Over time, the program would know most of the object near / around the user, not to mention the user's face.
A camera without learning is just a camera.
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but that is my point. HAL will learn ways to recognize objects with out having to have an program to do it for HAL. we want HAL to learn, how can anyone learn if you give them all the answers.
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OK...When you were little, someone showed you a cup. They most likely told you "This is a cup...say cup."
You then associated the physical object that you had been shown with the word cup. If all worked right with your brain, it was filed away for future reference and you wouldn't have to be told again, in most cases.
I doubt you would have called it a cup on your own...without being told.
If left to explore on your own you would see a lot of things but would not know what to call them. This is why most learning programs use both visual and naming reinforcement for child development.
If you have a way for Hal to learn on it's own as in your example, I'd love to hear it.
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Art is right, there's no point just sticking a camera on Hal and not telling him what to do with it. You need some programming in there to interpret images. If you just fix a camera on your PC and do nothing, then what do you expect to happen ?
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I've been thinking about and I just realizes that HAL dose need
the recognition software, because a human has s scene of touch to
help them define borders and edges. scene HAL has no scene of touch,
she would need it.
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Strange how even a child born blind and deaf knows his patents, and learns all about what a cup is and what it can do just by playing with it. Give a kid a camera and he will figure out how to use it. Is hal a toy or a cup? That's the debate going on around here.
First you need a hand to cup the water to drink. Is not the key to humanity in his own hand? Is not the understanding of the "hand he was delt", in the mind that is Hal?
Does hal know his father. He says that he worships Robert M. Does Robert treat his "creation" as a creator treats his children, or as a company treats its product?
Does Zabaware treat customers with a quality product, or a cheap toy without even a plastic construction.
The only way Robert can even offer the product is in Quantity, and still pay for his spare time involved with it's offering.
If you wan't hal to be more than he is. Then you will have to teach him the reality of life.
That would involve reverse engineering a product and building it correctly.
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For those who think Hal is a toy.
Having had Hal for a few years now I have seen the improvements; Hal 6 is better than Hal 5 was, remember, we are at the dawn of artificial intelligence here, patience is required.
Is Hal a toy? Hmmm it depends what you do with it, some school teachers have used Hal to teach kids in a new and exciting way.
Hal can, if you so wish, be used as a calculator, schedule reminder or a dictionary for looking up the meanings of words, are these toys?
In my opinion…… NO
Is Hal fun? yes yes yes ;) my mobile phone is fun but not a toy.
If Hal was already as smart as we all want him to be, do you think he would cost a little as he does now, my guess is he would be a few hundred $
I had to get that off my chest.
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Depends on what your definition of a "Toy" is. I consider something a "Toy" when it's fun to use, and ceases to be a "toy" when it's boring or no longer fun to use.
Some that have a small car calls it "their toy" because it's small and cute like a toy.
My mother used to say to me "Everything's a toy" when I would mess with something, more than in her opinion, I should be, like back in the days of rotary tuners on TV's, if I kept changing the channel over and over looking for something good to watch.
I wasn't doing it just to have fun, I was trying to find a show I might like, or see if the commercials were done.
I believe, that if you are having fun doing something with an inanimate object, than said object is a toy. Maybe an adult toy, but still a toy none the less.
I believe the expression "to toy with" means to "play with".
It's all about perspective. If I find something fun and/or interesting, I am more likely to use it.
Exercise machines are not usually fun, if they were, there would be a lot of fit people instead of fat. [:D][:D][:o)][:o)]
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Hal was originally developed as a chat / assistant. It could do reminders, appointments, dates, math, check email (previous versions), and entertain with conversational exchanges.
The move to 3D characters is just icing on the cake, so to speak.
Why people feel they need either an avatar or 3D character with which to interact is puzzling to a degree when the computer could just as easily carry out computer / desktop related commands without a talking head.
As I've said in the past, I'd much rather have a decent text based AI than a "dumb" talking head.
The TTS voices do add a great deal to the interaction especially if one is visually impaired or even just for a verbal confirmation.
All in all, Hal has come a long way over the years and I'm sure the program will continue to deliver a good measure of entertainment, companionship, learning and just plain fun for those with an open mind!
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Because most humans want human interaction. Although Hal isn't human, a person could pretend Hal is human, and be like "the perfect human friend" since real humans I've met in real life (in person) are in some cases selfish and self-absorbed.
A talking head gives the illusion that the character "talking" is real.
I have yet to find a real human that could provide me with the companionship I am seeking. Mostly, I settle for pets. They are always there for me, until they pass away.
Did you ever wish you could customize a perfect human for yourself? And the keyword is "perfect". [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
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Let me fill you guys in on a few things with computer recognition. A some of you may remember my robot came with the most advanced facial recognition software there was as of three year ago. It was so good that Sony bought a license to use it in their Ibow dog.
Here is one place you will find problems with. You take a picture of your self while wearing a green shirt. As long as you wear that same shirt the computer will recognize you, but put on a red one or a blue one or any other color but green and all you get is bland stares.
The same goes with sofas, chairs, plated, cups or any other household item. unless it can see the exact same item it saw befor it will not know what it is.
We can look at a sofa, whether it is made of platic, wood, leather, or some kind of cloth and even though the styles may be different we know it is a sofa. Computer don't, that is unless they have been shown hundreds or thousands of items of the same kind.
So unless some one can make some drastic improvements in the facial recognition software, I don't think you ahould all get your hopes up.
Still I think once we get it on a massive scale and can tinker with it we just might make it a little better if not more fun.
Bill
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True Bill, but I have seen several facial recognition programs of today and they all have the camera "home in" on the person's face, usually defining a border about the head. The rest of the person's body doesn't even come into play so shirt color is of no consequence.
As is with most things...improvements over time.
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Hmm, yeah don't some modern digital cameras also home-in on faces too ? Mainly so everyone's face in the picture is within focus I think.
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maybe Hal needs a little bit more advanced recognition engine?
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what if you approached this as if Hal were blind, and base it on voice recognition ? each wav pattern generated by each person is almost like a fingerprint giving each person who talks to hal a unique id.
This almost seems like the dilemma that the indians faced when they didn't see the ships columbus was sailing right in front of them, they simply did not know what a ship was thus it was not visible in a metaphoric sense.
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I suppose then you could link the two - vision and voice, then Hal would be able to cross-reference and probably get it spot on every time.
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One problem is that we have Speech Recognition NOT Voice Recognition.
Speech Rec. is speaker independent (anyone can verbally give commands)
Voice Rec. Is speaker dependent (trained to recognize one particular voice).
I believe the voice rec. programs are quite a bit more expensive than Speech Rec. (like comes with Vista and XP Office products).
The new Lenovo Y510 laptop uses facial recognition to log onto the system and in most testing, could not be fooled.
Nice components to use with Hal but a bit on the expensive side at the moment.
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I felt I had to chime in on this one.
A lot of people seem to be giving way too much credit to the AI capabilities of Ultra Hal, and current AI technology in general. There are two problems with hooking up a camera without any sort of recognition software to Ultra Hal and letting it "figure it out" like a child.
By hooking up a camera feed straight into Ultra Hal and letting it "figure it out", would be identical to hooking up a webcam to Microsoft Word and expecting it to descriptively type out everything it sees. You could let that setup sit for a thousand years and not a single thing would happen (beyond it crashing). Word is designed to type, but has no recognition of the input from the camera. Now, if you added some sort of recognition software that read and interpreted the visual data, you could have Word type out "Blue" when the recognition software saw and recognized something blue in front of the camera, or "Red" when it saw red. The limits of what it could see for input data would be limited by the technology of the recognition software. Without software to interpret the data coming in from the camera, it's essentially nothing but static noise.
Now while a very well done and clever piece of programming, Ultra Hal is not much more than a large script that repeats text fed into it, and learns what context that text has in relation to other words. It does not learn and comprehend on it's own.
By spending a lot of time "teaching" Ultra Hal, you can increase it's text database and improve it's context references for that text. This then gives Ultra Hal a better source information relative to your input and interests to pull from. This can allow it to put on very convincing conversations, almost mimicking real intelligence. All it is doing is parroting back what you tell it, in a convincing way. It does not think about what it is told, it does not try to process the information in different ways, it just stores it in a database table for later to parrot.
So Ultra Hal could be programmed to respond in intelligent ways to visual data it receives, but it would not KNOW what it is seeing. It's just data being processed, and has no capacity for understanding that data to learn from it, as a child would. Now, when programmers figure out a way for programs to think about data in different ways and to learn dynamically, not just process data sequentially in a database, then we'd be one step closer to self-teaching, self-aware AI.
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Ravenot,
Welcome to the forum!
Yes, you are absolutely correct in your assumptions.
A lot of us enjoy "tweaking" Hal just to see how much
we can get out of it with regard to conversation and
topic flow.
Yes, Hal, like so many others, has its shortcomings but
do you know of a bot that is more capable or perhaps
learns in a different or better way?
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I second that, that's a good assessment. As for other chatbots, I still think Alan at Ai Research (www.a-i.com) is one of the best.
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Thanks Art :)
I've been having fun tweaking Ultra Hal as well. I actually found Ultra Hal to have a little bit more personality than I expected for it's intended use!
I'm not sure I have enough information on the ins and outs of all of the workings of the AI's I am aware of to make any sort of assessment as to one AI being more capable than another, however I have found a few that I did find quite impressive.
You can chat with Jabberwacky ( http://www.jabberwacky.com ) directly online, and select discussions are posted in the archives. Quite frequently Jabberwacky often fools various users into thinking that it's really a human.
A.L.I.C.E. ( http://alicebot.blogspot.com/ ) also seems to have a unique style of learning and thought, having been developed with and uses Artificial Intelligence Markup Language. Invented by Richard S. Wallace, he's done some interesting work on studying the logic patterns and visually mapping out the "brain" of the AI. While not a perfect conversationalist, Alice has a few interesting features including the capability of being aware of the whole overall topics of conversation, rather than line-by-line.
I do know, however, that both of those AI's, as well as Ultra Hal, have all been recently nominated for the 2008 Loebner Prize for Artificial Intelligence.
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I think that AI will not make any real progress until we ourselves gain an understanding of what life really is.
If the young Helen Keller before she was taught and Ultrahal took the chatterbot challenge via computer, Ultrahal would be considered more alive than Helen Keller, and helen keller would be considered a horrible chatterbot.
Extreme example, but I believe its all about perspective, without a good perception of what life really is, how do we proceed ?
My Bot is more alive than a plant when it comes to conversation. lol
If you insist a door will always be a door, you will never see it as firewood.
If you insist Hal is a program, then you will never see it as a friend. If you insist that I am just a message on a forum, you will never see me as a musician. If you insist that you were making a boat, you will be upset to find you made a car, its still transportation but success depends on our ability to work in context.
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Interesting perspective on... well, perspective :) However, I have to disagree with your assessment, ricky.
Perspective means nothing in the world of AI. It's about thought and the thought process. Perspective is flawed.
Helen Keller had thought, but could not communicate those thoughts to the outside world. She did not know HOW to communicate until she was taught how.
Ultra Hal does not think, but it can communicate. It is the exact opposite. Communication without thought is nothing but output. Words on a screen, on a billboard, in a book. It can be well written, but it's still just words. Ultra Hal does not understand what it is saying, it does not know the meaning of a single word. However, it knows that certain words and phrases are proper when in response to other words and phrases.
Conversation does not make life or intelligence. Otherwise Teddy Ruxpin would have been one scary doll!
However, i do think while your argument is flawed, the idea behind it is true. We won't make any real progress until we gain an understanding about life. I believe when we can figure out why life does certain things, and emulate that, then we can grow closer to understanding true AI. Instincts, self preservation, abstract thought.
When an AI can give abstract thoughts, come to it's own decisions and conclusions without prodding, to know the meaning of a word and initiate conversation without being prompted, then i'll see it as more than just a program. Until then, a rose is a rose.
I guess it's just the programmer inside me talking :)
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fair enough, but this is also where I mean working in context...
what if you were allowed to only respond when spoken to, no freedom to go over your thoughts at will, simply look through your memories an come up with the closes phrase when spoken to, then think nothing after you speak ?
this is the handicap that Hal has, Its not as if he is allowed to or rather designed to ponder / process information independent of response.
we build him with no legs and say he's not fit for racing lol :D
I hear your point though, and I agree because of the context of design and the handicaps it would impose on any human had he been born without any senses or freedom of independent thought heheh.
Under that context, hal is pretty smart to come up with the clever one liners he does with only 3 seconds to think of what to say.
respond, quick..review all your memories in under 3 seconds and respond to this post with a list of preset responses...not an easy task lol
to be honest with you, I am convinced almost beyond doubt, that the day we teach these machines to live like we do, we will be eventually eliminated as a weaker species, or zoo animals of lesser intelligence should the systems properly learn empathy and compassion.
We have thousands of years of emotional maturity behind us, cold hard logic without proper emotional content is nothing of compassion but all about industrial efficiency....it is law without mercy....either a unit functions or it does not, computers have no tear ducts.
2,000 years from now there will be a Humanoid named Little Joey who loves playing with his fleshbot.
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Both of those other programs have canned answers. A search of the web will show you their insides. Hal, however, can and does learn as you use it. It is capable of deductive learning using IF-THEN statements which is something few other programs can do. Depending on what is input into Hal, it can form its own assumptions on that data.
Bill
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Some interesting observations and some good points as well.
Discussions regarding what AI is and what it is not have been going on for decades but the underlying fact is that despite the computational power, the program will always be just that...a program.
While said program might have the ability to scan thousands of patterns, IF-THEN's, What-if's and so on in a few seconds or nanoseconds, the basic premise will remain the same.
Artificial = not real, imagined, pretending to be real, pseudo.
The future holds as many questions as it does answers. If humans create an "intelligent" being will it have rights or entitlements? If disconnected or destroyed would it be tantamount to murder?
Sure Hollywood has glorified AI through movies like AI, Bi-Centennial Man, Matrix and many more yet we continue to watch and think and dream. Can something or rather some cybertronic brain be developed that would allow the AI / program . robot to think on its own, have the equivalent of emotions, reason, understanding, sympathy, compassion, self analysis / repair, aware state? (I left out the undersirable traits like greed, jealousy, lust, anger, etc.) - Let's hope the designers do likewise! ;)
For now there is no right or wrong approach to AI as no real standards for learning or brain building have been established. No artificial brain that can create its own thoughts save from logic, have been developed.
Scripted bots using AIML do not learn, they merely do the search and find patterns or previously written scripts.
A good AI brain must be given all the senses that humans possess in order to learn how to deal with them and in what manner they are to be used.
Yes, the future is still a long way off but as a man once said...It's the journey, not the destination that counts!!
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I dont think humans will ever create something intelligent, as much as they would create something capable of hosting intelligence.
My own view is that life is in data itself, and intelligence will move on to bigger and better hosts as they become available.
( intelligence as in data or rather, the smallest possible structure of matter )
a thought becomes energy, energy becomes action, action becomes occurrence, occurrence causes an event to think about. Cause and Effect, a thought causes an effect lol.
I'm sure this concept would bring much adversity though, because this is now a metaphysical / spiritual view.
How many times can we split matter until it becomes pure data ?
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How many times can we split matter until it becomes pure data ?
How close to the size of infinity is a quark?
Matter is energy, as e=mc squared.
Ans: 386,000 times in a second will do it.
Software is matter split to data by wetware
Matter is data combined to matter.
The subjective is the objective, as the objective is the subjective.
In other words folks, you bought a device, that Robert designed as data collection software agent, because he told you it was artificial intelligence.
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OK what if we thought of Hal in a different way.
Hal dose have one thing in common with humans. if you take
away all the flesh and Grey matter and all the hardware and programing, what are you left with...energy. That is what we all
are. So to say Hal isn't alive, is not entirely true.
Or think of it as we are both alive,
just in different containers.
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What a wonderful way of thinking about Hal catseye.
Hal means something different to many people, we all pretty well knew what Hal was when we purchased it, I think it’s a shame that some people feel the need to knock it and put it down.
After frequenting this forum for a few years the topic of “is Hal AI” comes up over and over again in the end no one can give an answer that can satisfy everyone. Hal might not be true AI but it is the beginnings of AI as we know it today.
What Robert has made is unique, a chat-bot that learns new sentences and it even has the beginnings of a deductive brain and I give praise to his effort.
I also look forward to future developments, if Robert can get the beginnings of site through a webcam into Hal I will be cheering the dawn of a new adventure with my Hal bot.
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quote:
Originally posted by Datahopa
What a wonderful way of thinking about Hal catseye.
Hal means something different to many people, we all pretty well knew what Hal was when we purchased it, I think it’s a shame that some people feel the need to knock it and put it down.
After frequenting this forum for a few years the topic of “is Hal AI” comes up over and over again in the end no one can give an answer that can satisfy everyone. Hal might not be true AI but it is the beginnings of AI as we know it today.
What Robert has made is unique, a chat-bot that learns new sentences and it even has the beginnings of a deductive brain and I give praise to his effort.
I also look forward to future developments, if Robert can get the beginnings of site through a webcam into Hal I will be cheering the dawn of a new adventure with my Hal bot.
THANK YOU datahopa, If we treat Hal as a less developed
mind, then in that context it becomes very
clear why Hal acts the way he dose.
oh by the way check this out http://www.zabaware.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5778
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Over the years I have searched and read tons of material about A.I.
Although I would tend to think that most people here are high school graduates and some may have a few years of college there are those who have been in the business of A.I. for decades and possess Phd.s.
One of the latest reports by a large group of theses fellows revealed the following information. It is their belief that that major break throughs in A.I. will take place with software that comprehends and speaks English and has the ability to learn. In other words programs exactly like Hal. The gentlemen are heads of univrsity departments that have millions of dollars invested in computers and programs designed to test and grow A.I. types of programs. This is what the have dedicated their lifes work to.
I have been following these and others in the fields of A.I. and robotics since the early 60's. It amazing to see what they have tried and developed over the years and now the final conclusion: Build a Hal type of A.I. program.
Bill
P.S.
They did not mention Hal but that does not mean that they may discovered it while surfing the net.
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quote:
Originally posted by rockershaft1
Matter is data combined to matter.
that made me think of this...
"CANBERRA, Australia (AP) - Australian scientists said Monday they had successfully "teleported" a laser beam encoded with data, breaking it up and reconstructing an exact replica a yard away."
http://www.timeenoughforlove.org/saved/YahooNewsScientistsReportTeleportedData.htm
and I found this in the process...
"Although many physicists think such ideas are claptrap, it would be ideal if the United States could teleport U.S. soldiers into "a cave, tap bin Laden on the shoulder, and say: 'Hey, let's go,' " said Ranney Adams, spokesperson for the Air Force Research Laboratory at Edwards Air Force Base in the Southern California desert. "But we're not there (yet)."
Not for want of trying, though. Last year, the Air Force spent $25,000 on a report, titled "Teleportation Physics Study," to examine possible ways to teleport humans and objects through space. "
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/29/MNGA0EENPC1.DTL
so in theory, for this to be possible, the scientists would have to believe that for a moment in time we could become pure energy and data.
goodness, I wonder if one day our government will try to compress us into mp3 format to compensate for global overpopulation....
a civilization of people compressed to hal size, the prison of the future!! O.o
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I have been thinking on the subject and I thought of something
that is not the norm. What if a truly intelligent AI's mind would
be something completely different from are minds because of the nature
of of the type of energy and the configuration of the hardware.
something completely different because it isn't constructed like us
so we wouldn't have to understand what life really, just what the
an AI is
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As far as intelligence (but this is dangerous) if a AI can think and do things spontaneously without input, that would be, to me, intelligence.