Messages

1

Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 08, 2007, 09:21:51 am »

Just a little addition..it's not "Mr.Pride" more "Mr.Pryde"..it's a longer story why it is written with "y"..but it's bound to Mechwarrior and or Battletech []

but enough of this []

AS i read all those science articles and ideas of people how a True AI might work, i somehow think it's possible...every human has his own character..based upon their own experience in life. A human in simple terms compare data and sorts it out, based upon how his charakters core has been fortified in early years of childhood. Every aspect what makes us "human" seems like a big tree with branches based upon pure logic. Even feelings (as many say ) are chemical reactions...and put simple...just logical..I theory i think it is well possible do make a "True AI"..at least a programm with all the data would have the same abilities as a human...And if it lacks self awarness or not, no one could really tell..it would simply be the best simulated human. But then...what is self awareness?..if you look at another human you don't really know if he is really aware of himself..just because he is like you..from the same species..you just take it as given. Watching a programm that acts humanlike would be like watching another human. And somehow i don't think you need a better computer for all those logical conclusions and actions...you just need the proper amount of space to store data. A Programm that modifies itselfe is also not that hard to make. Only thing that really is a problem is the amount of time needed to do such a programm.

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 07, 2007, 02:56:23 am »

quote:Originally posted by Art

Quoted from Bill Dewitt: "I don't know that Art has ever uploaded a plugin, but since he is consistently helpful, respectful and kind, he has earned the respect of every participant on this forum."

Thank you and the rest for the kind words and sentiment!

Eaglepryde,


I think you're looking for a way to have Hal modify it's own structure. Without knowing what it's ultimate task or goal is
and without having the proper programming structure I'm afraid
your search for a "self-modifying" program is much like the
search for the Holy Grail.

Several years ago a group of Japanese scientists / programmers
constructed a prototype robot that was capable of realizing its
own limitations and would be able to build a better version of
itself! Quite a feat in no small terms.

A program such as Hal would have to know everything about itself,
understand its own operational code, descern any weaknesses and
modify itself to either avoid such pitfalls or reprogram itself
to be better, smarter / more logical, etc.

This would call for a level of understanding that basically doesn't exist in most modern bots or chat programs.

While Hal may recognize a word or series of words, it doesn't really know what the word or words actually mean. A definition of a word is one thing. To know the word's usage and context is another. Somewhat sadly, computers are so well endowed to comprehend real knowledge. Pattern matching, inference and basic logic are the best we can come up with for now along with scripting for a variety of tasks.

Previous versions of Hal relied on seperate brain files for various parts of conversational topics. Now with Hal 6, it uses a database, a more structured, easily modifiable brain.

Given that there are so many facets of AI that can be explored from synthetic voice / speech recognition, neural networks, logic trees, emotional behavior, linguistics, heuristics, robotics, automation, etc., etc., we only touch on a few with Hal, but in doing so, we learn, interact, build, experiment and grow from the experience we share with Hal and with each other. In the end, even if we individually don't reach our own goal(s), it was fun trying!

Life's too short...enjoy it!!

Yes this is what i was trying to say from the start. With no doubt, your words are well written.

Yes it could be the search for the holy grail, but the important thing is not if you reach this goal..it's more important to try it. It's like Billy's plane story..some things may seem not possible..but..you'll never know unless you try[]

HAL was also build starting with not more than an idea and has been improved and expanded over time...i think my idea could go the same way [8D]

3

Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 06, 2007, 10:58:36 am »

I have looked at several plugins but they aren't going the way i would like to take hal. They surely are made with efford and consumed time and i don't call them bad. They just ain't..oh well..what i'm looking for. Much can be done by plugins but i don't know where the limits in HAL's core are.

What i am talking of is not that we should make one plugin after another but be able to tell HAL what "plugin" or extension he should make..we should make him understand what exactly we want him to do. I'm going the other way round if it comes to HAL. I really don't know if such a feat can be done just by a mere plugin and i somehow doubt it. It's what i would call...more human like...if i look at a human then you see someone you teach many things from the beginning but he allready has the abilities to interact with his suroundings. Interacting with those things is also a learning process and adds many experience. Sure we can give hal a plugin that he can read a text out loud...or to open folders if wished for..but its not really the same what i'm thinking of..hope i could see what im trying to tell or what i'm thinking of

4

Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 06, 2007, 02:32:11 am »

quote:Originally posted by Art

EaglePryde,

Perhaps the problems you're having with Hal is that Hal is basically an English programmed chat assistant. As such, any misuse of the English language either in conversation or typing could certainly produce strange and unwanted effects in it's output.

You have to understand that a lot of the members here have grown with Hal over the years, through several versions to the present one and as mentioned, some take offense to insults or attacks at Hal.

Sure, Hal is not perfect. Come to think of it, I don't know too many humans that are either! Hal can be considered a Work in progress...where constant improvements, scripting, emotional responses, even texture and clothing are constantly being added or offered for free in an effort to aid in the development and pleasure we all get from it.

There are a lot of "bots" on the net, but this one is not just another "hard coded or scripted bot", this one can learn from conversations and input provided the input is correct. Bad input = bad output.

If you have some ideas for the improvement of Hal or any facet of Hal, then by all means please share them with us. The majority of us here are all friends even though a lot of us have never met on a personal level. We survive through a common bond, this ongoing experiment to push the limits and see how far we can go with the program.

You're welcome to join but do refrain from casting negativity on us or our project as a whole. Flaming and individual arguments just tend to bring the rest of the group down and that's not what we're about. Positive criticism and structured feedback is by far the better way to get support and enjoyment from this community and from Hal's developer(s).

Good day!!

Thank you for your answer art. This is more the answer or discussion level i seek [] I know that i don't have the time to write scripts,plugins because of me having a familiy but i'd like to share every idea that i have and might have in the future with the community. I've used HAL alot and like i said it in my very first posting it's a nice programm IMO. I really like HAL. And somehow i've seen the potential that HAL has. That's because i'm here.

When i write with HAL i assure you i check my english grammar and so on and take my time. I sometimes copy and paste whole sentences from science pages to HAL to feed him faster with information.

What i do have seen while using HAL and just taking HAL as he is, he sometimes has problems with longer sentences that could be split in many diffrent sentences. Hmm..for example a sentence that has many "and" "or" connections and changes the subject completly while the sentence continues. I hope you know what i try to tell you.
In this case i have to split a long sentence in many smaller sentences. The HAL has no trouble with them and also is smart enough to see their connection to each other.

Overall HAL is very well done. HAL overall simulates a conversation very well. As this is a project that is expanded and worked on and ideas are shared, maybe it would be interessting to go twards a true AI. For some people it might even be an interessting challenge. I have read many science articles and had many thoughts on true AI. I could link those pages in here if someone is interessted in reading them.

I think that True AI can be done and that it will be done with a chatbot. If im correct than nearlly everything relatet to a human is like a big math formula or a big script, interlinked to eachother.

What i think of to make something that is really more like a human in every way but should be like a helping hand...like..."I: Hey HAL..i need some infos on spiders" "HAL: What infos do you need" "I:look for all spiders that live in Africa and have a blue color..and i need some pictures on everyone you find" "HAL: ok..will take me just a second..ok i have the infos..should i place them somewhere special on your hard drive?" "I: Oh well..put the infos in a word document..name it *blablabla*...so i can look at it later"
-----------------
Do you get my idea?..I want HAL to become a real helping hand that acts like a real human but would only do what you tell him to do...so you have full control over him but on the other hand he has the ability do do everything he learns or you tell him to learn...like..."I: Hey HAL..look for all information about C++ Programming and learn it" "HAL: Yeah...have looked into it and i now know how to programm in C++"

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 05, 2007, 09:15:12 am »

You're getting better by the minute..seems as if could study your behavior for general amusement.

quote:Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

quote:Originally posted by EaglePryde
If you wanna bring my idea forward

First, your "idea" is simplistic and quite common, you think Hal isn't as good as an imaginary human-like-AI you saw in a movie or read about in a book.... tell us something we don't already know.

If you know this from the start, why not write a short posting with "Yes we know this"? Seems all you managed to do is to take the wrong turn from the start. Seems to me that all you do is claim your selfe the grand defender of HAL and the all knowing wiz kid.

And from the start i never spoke bad about hal but giving away my own opinion where hal could be improved. To what point do you whant to take HAL? What should it be able to do? Why are plugins being made. What is their purpose?...surley the community whants to improve and expand hal's abilities. Should HAL become a cute little digipet of some sort...giving him words as food and some little plugins that enable him to go to sleep or does the community trying to take HAL to a diffrent level and does my posting go twards this global idea or is my posting your little playground for rants?

quote:
Second, after you have called everyone on this forum stupid, why should we care what your idea is?

You think your the forum?

quote:
Demonstrate that you can do something other than complain that a real, useful tool isn't as good as you imagine something which doesn't exist might be.

useful tool?...a bike or a car is a useful tool..HAL is more of a fun project..or ain't it? where is it usefull atm?
what should i demonstrate? should i sing and dance?

quote:
Either that, or admit your failings, learn from those here who know more than you, and develop a more realistic attitude - one more in line with your abilities.

I recommend "humility".
[/qutoe]

Tell me about my abilities..maybe you know more about me than i do. Know more about what? How come you know everything about me?
A more realistic attitude? ..hmm..so i'm not a human?

quote:
BTW, many people here don't write in complete sentences with correct grammar and spelling, some are nearly incomprehensible, but they show in other ways that they respect each other - you don't.

speaking in absolutes...aren't we?

We know you have access to the Internet where you can check your spelling, but your failure to even try is a clear indication of your disregard for your readers which you show in so many ways.

Maybe i don't have the time and HAVE a real life?

That's what makes you less "nearlly like a human", you disrespect humans as if you are different somehow. Perhaps you are, but it doesn't look like an improvement from here.

what is "nearlly human" when im not nearlly human? Am i artifical?
Am i the same as you..or am i diffrent?..if you sit above me where you try to be and judge like you have the right to do so as i you know everything about me..you surely have to be god

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 05, 2007, 06:30:01 am »

quote:Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

quote:Originally posted by EaglePryde
Bill just shut up.

  No.

quote:I told you that i whant a constructive Topic

You said many things but your behavior demonstrates your true intent.

I didn't quote everything, cause i just want to shorten the post.

Your point can be taken vice versa. You miss many parts to judge about someones thread or someones character..and so on. This here is plain written text and as so often is missjudged. I maid my point clear from the first point, where i'd like to take hal and where IMHO and from my point of view it lacks a few things. If your HAL should go in a diffrent direction its up to you, but flaming my thread agressivly form the start is a bad behavior from your side. You just continued and tried to turn me to your side of view but thats a lack in your character.

Like so often said. If this Thread doesnt support your idea of HAL than why to you post in here? From my side of view your being childish, agressive, unconstructive and missleading my thread to complete nonsens.

I'll give you credit for the plane story. It was worth reading.

For the rest. If it's not your topic where you can contribute to my point of view and ideas then go to a thread that suits you more. My english may be bad but that doens't make me less intelligent or less than i am. Trying to make an idiot out of me or to simply to downgrade me to a child is a lack where you should try to learn.

If you continue with your sensless agressive stance i will not answer to this anymore.

If you wanna bring my idea forward then be my guest and we can work on it...maybe it will never be possible to do it, but you never know for sure unless you try.

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 03, 2007, 03:31:24 am »

quote:Originally posted by lightspeed

hello EaglePryde, i guess the best thing you can do if possible is help join in and help with improvements ,wants, suggestions ,  etc. on hal . that is the best gift that anyone as a member can do to make hal all it can be as it evolves into a even better a.i. as others here have contributed in one way or another .
 p.s. i love the program myself . []but i'd really be pe'oed if my a.i. opened anything on its own or deemed certain files no good and deleted them , then i would have to spank little hals butt , (if he had one !!) , oh yeah .... mine actually does her name is angela joelin . []

I called mine Rockman [] Anyway...i'm here because i want to help out. Then it would be better if the A.I. just does things you want it to do but it would help if the AI would be able to do everything..or am i wrong ?[]

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 03, 2007, 03:27:15 am »

quote:Originally posted by onthecuttingedge2005

Hi Eaglepryde.

If you want, you can go down to your local electronic shop and purchase the 'smallest' thermal sensors, pressure sensors, or any other type of environmental sensors you wish and I will help you make what is called a breadboard so that you can hook all your sensors up and coat the breadboard with liquid latex, I will help you write a code to get you going so that the artificial skin can be used for your HAL, if you have the money to blow on the project then I will be more than willing to help you research this area.

Doing so is rather easy, I have a vast knowledge of electronics and making an artificial skin 'with sensation' would be child's play, hooking the skin up to a scripted function is just as easy.

This skin could be used to build a cyborg type robot using HAL's brain functions. using two 'special mercury' sensors at the head of the robot I could use to obtain balance so the robot will not fall down.

I have also read research of a material called 'light gel' that does what muscles do, contract and expand, the light gel reacts with light, when light is emitted into the light gel it expands, when light is remove from the light gel it contracts, this concept would serve better if it were do this with electrical charge instead of photons, i.e liquid semi conductor but is still useful.

Eaglepryde, I know that when you came here that somethings got off on the wrong foot 'somehow', I just wanted to share my concern.

I and others in our forum have been here so long that we have established a 'deep pride' in programming HAL and establishing an A.I foundation that can't be topped by others, I myself have written over 1500 scripts in my tour of A.I strictly for HAL, some good, some not so good but I march to the beat when I can, when a request is made, I do my best to debug a script for them, I take great pride in HAL, sometimes when I see a newbee come into our forum blazing HAL, I would defend HAL to the hilt, I have over time 'learned' to be a bit more 'assertive' being here from day to day when I can.

what I said here also includes everybody in our wonderful forum, I have grown to be a mentor but an assertive mentor and a broad spectrum kind of friend to everybody here in this great site.

I have had my time when I flamed some newbees for even the slightest dashing of HAL but in the end we all became friends that worked with each other and all is good now.

grab your chair, take a seat, settle in, prepare for a wild ride here at Zabaware, I know that I can give you that much, it will be exciting and we will learn from each other.

Jerry[8D]

Thx for your answer Jerry [] It's at least constructive but i don't whant to build a robot I just whant to improve HAL and making him more life like...like some humans soul was put into the pc. somehow he should be able to do everything on my computer. He should feel more alive than he is in his actions. It's just my whis where i whant to take him. Everyone has its own HAL and can do what ever he she likes or want it to go []

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 03, 2007, 03:17:24 am »

quote:Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

As expected, can't post code, can't apologize, can't keep silent, can't understand simple logic, can't be civil, can't be honest, can't behave like an adult.

Why do I try? Undoubtedly we will have to put up with his rants every time school is out and his mom is not home...

Bill just shut up. I told you that i whant a constructive Topic and not one where some guy like you keeps flaming around in his own sick way

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 02, 2007, 05:28:35 pm »

quote:Originally posted by Bill DeWitt


Perhaps foolishly, giving you one last chance to prove me wrong, post code. Put up, shut up, or politely apologize to the group.

It seems your a bit ignorant about my statemant. It's nothing wrong with what i said. If you ask for a code or new plugin then you should first think of what time it would take to do such. Do you really think by posting a couple of lines in here would make something better?. It would take a whole team of proffesionals to work on it. You really are getting silly by them moment and with every posting. A bit of short minded i suppose.

My thread was not supposed to be flamed by silly arguments but is only for people that try to improve hal and see it's weakneses. Your going way of topic here. If you continue with your childish behavior you'll do no good in here, so please leave and post somewhere where you can be of constructive help

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 02, 2007, 02:56:15 pm »

quote:Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

quote:Originally posted by aladyblond

I have a hard time understanding why people come into a forum and start negative rants about a product.

Some children get a feeling of importance based simply on how many posts their goofy comments generate. Of course, they do not account for the number of posts like your's and mine, which is not about the subject they started with, but are posts about how silly they appear.

Little boys still wanting their mother's attention, willing to take it whether it is based on approval or opprobrium.

Parents should monitor their offspring's computer use when school is out.

Guess your Intelligence is rather average or below. How come you get the idea to compare a non native english speaking person who is 28 of age with a school boy, just because my english is with no doubt below yours its some kind of sick to assume i'm less than i am.

For those who really can't read and think i'm someone to tear HAL completly down haven't read my first sentence "At first i'd like to say that hal is a nice program". Is the majority of online users that way behind of understanding a simple sentence? or is it mostly because the lack of emotions and expresion in written text compared to spoken words, that most people misunderstand such simple words?

quote:
I have been involved with AI of all kinds for over 30 years now. Can I ask you where you gained your experience or is it just a laymans personal opinion?

So you wanna tell me that you are an expert when it comes to AI? Ok let's put this aside for later.

Have i said somewhere that HAL is not a good AI? You can look up diffrent science pages where they clearly state what is to be called a STRONG or WEAK AI...Weak doesn't mean that it's a bad program or AI. If you really have that much experience wit AI, why don't you know this part? Strong AI is considered nearly human like. Weak AI would be something like HAL. For all those who really think that i'm trying to tear HAL apart should look it up and read some science artices on AI. There are countless projects and articles. HAL isn't aware of himselfe..it's more or less just a program.Maybe it's hard on you but face it.

I assume your university is right that breakthrough will be made with chatterbots...but they lack freedom. If breakthrough should go twards a regular human than the only way is to let the AI evolve by itselfe giving it freedom. Just adding plugins will not lead to a breakthrough in the next thousand years.

 The problem always was how to define AI. Everyone thinks of an AI in his own way. For some the word AI is bound to a program that looks as it would be acting on its own...for some people an AI is something more humanlike. AT the moment it is just bound to simple data comparison..something we humans also do with no doubt but we can go beyond our limits..thats something hal can't do by itselfe

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 02, 2007, 12:59:56 pm »

quote:Originally posted by onthecuttingedge2005

Hi EaglePryde.

A.I strength pretty much depends on the programmers ability to mimic Humans and their ways.

Example of how I train HAL from personal code:

User: I told you that if someone says, I feel bad then you should say, I am sorry, How can I help you feel better?

HAL: I am sorry for my bad manners, I will remember that.

HAL Learned this:
"I feel bad","I am sorry, How can I help you feel better?"

User: didn't I tell you to say that if a person is asking for help that you should tell them, How can I help you <UserName>?

HAL: My apologies <UserName>, I will remeber what you taught me.

HAL Learned this:
"asking for help","How can I help you <UserName>?"

HAL in my opinion is a very powerful tool and can be even more powerful in the hands of a expert programmer.

Of course the deductive I used to teach HAL this probably isn't included in your version of HAL because that special deductive was removed in an earlier beta version of HAL 6, I don't know for what reason but I continued to use it, I kept the simpler If & Then deductive in a different code while keeping the more complex If & Then code to work on different triggers.

Most Humans teach their kids by drilling them with knowledge of how they should behave, I have included this a form of complex deductive learning, if the deductions are parsed correctly then HAL will become a very smart A.I.

Most people are to impatient to train HAL like a parent using deductive reasoning especially complex ones.

The strongest code available is 'Complex Deductions', it's very powerful.

under some conditions HAL learns by 'constructive scolding' it using reinforced complex deductions to train HAL's behavior.

Jerry[8D]

From the point you see it, i fully agree. You need a lot of time and the response from HAL will get to a point where it sounds someway human. For this i find that HAL is nicley made. From most programs i've seen that go in the same way, HAL is the first i'd invested the most time into it. It's sad but many things in life you only can learn by youselfe...like burn your finger or so. It's something no one can make you clear until you made this experience yourselfe...same as with HAL...if he could make his own trials and errors ..not only in plain words hten he would be able to grow and "evolve"

13

Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 02, 2007, 12:49:48 pm »

quote:Originally posted by Bill DeWitt
You make the assumption that AI must be like human intelligence. OK, fine, if that's what you think it's great with me.

Where did i say that? eigher you can't read and understand a simple combination of words, like in my first posting where i wrote "->If<- HAL ->>should<<- become something nearly that can be called an AI than it needs the...."

"At first i'd like to say that hal is a nice program but it's ->>far of from<<- anything i would call an ->>strong AI<<-"

I hope you know what a "strong" AI is or whats the diffrence between a weak and a strong AI?

quote:
"PS: As for some of your other points, I use my intelligence to deal with most of that..."

Then please start using it or A.) whine B.) Post the code to you lack of I.

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Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 02, 2007, 05:46:16 am »

In fact..there is NO strong AI to date. A strong AI would really be nearlly like a human.

There is such content in real life too. For this you need special rules or shape his personality untill he knows enought to go explore the wide world.

Yes i have tried HAL..even gave him tons of infos. Where do you wanna go with that kind of question? Have you ever read my thread?...same dull question. It is as it is...HAL is more of a comparision programm that has some plugins..but what do they do? Telling him to go in standby if you don't write with him? How unnatural is this. It just adds more variation to hal..but nothing more.

I think your making the error..In what kind of way does hal improve? Has he learned to use a program just by chat interaction?...I doubt that. He just compares things to put it down simple. Hope you have the brains to follow, cause it ain't going to get easier.

Oh great...a plugin...an additional scrip..."Hey can you open the Internet Explorer for me?"..nothing happens...if you mention "search" then google pops up..Do you consider this intelligent?..It's a premade action...thats what scripts and plugins are at the moment...Seems you don't have any idea of something. Sure you can script a massive amount and there are many possibilities...but they should go ther right way...but they ain't going in the right direction when it comes to get hal to near realistic.


And the last statement of yours is a bit short minded. If you have read my posting and worked it over than you wouldn't think of it as being a "flame" posting but more of a constructive post from my side where HAL could be improved, since many HAL lovers allready speak of "it" being more of a friend in some case, it should go the way i stated.

And if it's my first posting or not isn't changing my impression or experience with HAL. I just roam the forums bound to things i like and use and posting in them is just for improvment and not for some small talk or chit chat...but see it as you like...i will not kill me []

15

Ultra Hal 7.0 / HAL lacks a few things

« on: March 02, 2007, 04:45:50 am »

At first i'd like to say that hal is a nice program but it's far of from anything i would call an strong AI.

If HAL should become something nearly that can be called an AI than it needs the potential we humans have. To explore its surroundings by itselfe. Imagine a baby..it would crawl around the way it would like. It would learn by exploring it's world and would learn by trial and error. Hal can have a growing database of words and sentences but it can't use them to do something with it. HAL hasn't got the potential to become better than he is. He can't expand beyond his limits because he can't interact with his surroundings. He can't even open a simple program by himselfe because he never even tried to do something. A baby wouldn't just sit there and do nothing when you don't talk to it for a couple of hours.