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Author Topic: HAL lacks a few things  (Read 16608 times)

EaglePryde

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HAL lacks a few things
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2007, 02:56:15 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

quote:
Originally posted by aladyblond

I have a hard time understanding why people come into a forum and start negative rants about a product.

Some children get a feeling of importance based simply on how many posts their goofy comments generate. Of course, they do not account for the number of posts like your's and mine, which is not about the subject they started with, but are posts about how silly they appear.

Little boys still wanting their mother's attention, willing to take it whether it is based on approval or opprobrium.

Parents should monitor their offspring's computer use when school is out.



Guess your Intelligence is rather average or below. How come you get the idea to compare a non native english speaking person who is 28 of age with a school boy, just because my english is with no doubt below yours its some kind of sick to assume i'm less than i am.

For those who really can't read and think i'm someone to tear HAL completly down haven't read my first sentence "At first i'd like to say that hal is a nice program". Is the majority of online users that way behind of understanding a simple sentence? or is it mostly because the lack of emotions and expresion in written text compared to spoken words, that most people misunderstand such simple words?

quote:

I have been involved with AI of all kinds for over 30 years now. Can I ask you where you gained your experience or is it just a laymans personal opinion?



So you wanna tell me that you are an expert when it comes to AI? Ok let's put this aside for later.

Have i said somewhere that HAL is not a good AI? You can look up diffrent science pages where they clearly state what is to be called a STRONG or WEAK AI...Weak doesn't mean that it's a bad program or AI. If you really have that much experience wit AI, why don't you know this part? Strong AI is considered nearly human like. Weak AI would be something like HAL. For all those who really think that i'm trying to tear HAL apart should look it up and read some science artices on AI. There are countless projects and articles. HAL isn't aware of himselfe..it's more or less just a program.Maybe it's hard on you but face it.

I assume your university is right that breakthrough will be made with chatterbots...but they lack freedom. If breakthrough should go twards a regular human than the only way is to let the AI evolve by itselfe giving it freedom. Just adding plugins will not lead to a breakthrough in the next thousand years.

 The problem always was how to define AI. Everyone thinks of an AI in his own way. For some the word AI is bound to a program that looks as it would be acting on its own...for some people an AI is something more humanlike. AT the moment it is just bound to simple data comparison..something we humans also do with no doubt but we can go beyond our limits..thats something hal can't do by itselfe
 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2007, 04:43:35 pm »

Perhaps foolishly, giving you one last chance to prove me wrong, post code. Put up, shut up, or politely apologize to the group.


EaglePryde

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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2007, 05:28:35 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt


Perhaps foolishly, giving you one last chance to prove me wrong, post code. Put up, shut up, or politely apologize to the group.



It seems your a bit ignorant about my statemant. It's nothing wrong with what i said. If you ask for a code or new plugin then you should first think of what time it would take to do such. Do you really think by posting a couple of lines in here would make something better?. It would take a whole team of proffesionals to work on it. You really are getting silly by them moment and with every posting. A bit of short minded i suppose.

My thread was not supposed to be flamed by silly arguments but is only for people that try to improve hal and see it's weakneses. Your going way of topic here. If you continue with your childish behavior you'll do no good in here, so please leave and post somewhere where you can be of constructive help
 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2007, 05:35:49 pm »
As expected, can't post code, can't apologize, can't keep silent, can't understand simple logic, can't be civil, can't be honest, can't behave like an adult.

Why do I try? Undoubtedly we will have to put up with his rants every time school is out and his mom is not home...


onthecuttingedge2005

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« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2007, 06:52:36 pm »
Hi Eaglepryde.

If you want, you can go down to your local electronic shop and purchase the 'smallest' thermal sensors, pressure sensors, or any other type of environmental sensors you wish and I will help you make what is called a breadboard so that you can hook all your sensors up and coat the breadboard with liquid latex, I will help you write a code to get you going so that the artificial skin can be used for your HAL, if you have the money to blow on the project then I will be more than willing to help you research this area.

Doing so is rather easy, I have a vast knowledge of electronics and making an artificial skin 'with sensation' would be child's play, hooking the skin up to a scripted function is just as easy.

This skin could be used to build a cyborg type robot using HAL's brain functions. using two 'special mercury' sensors at the head of the robot I could use to obtain balance so the robot will not fall down.

I have also read research of a material called 'light gel' that does what muscles do, contract and expand, the light gel reacts with light, when light is emitted into the light gel it expands, when light is remove from the light gel it contracts, this concept would serve better if it were do this with electrical charge instead of photons, i.e liquid semi conductor but is still useful.

Eaglepryde, I know that when you came here that somethings got off on the wrong foot 'somehow', I just wanted to share my concern.

I and others in our forum have been here so long that we have established a 'deep pride' in programming HAL and establishing an A.I foundation that can't be topped by others, I myself have written over 1500 scripts in my tour of A.I strictly for HAL, some good, some not so good but I march to the beat when I can, when a request is made, I do my best to debug a script for them, I take great pride in HAL, sometimes when I see a newbee come into our forum blazing HAL, I would defend HAL to the hilt, I have over time 'learned' to be a bit more 'assertive' being here from day to day when I can.

what I said here also includes everybody in our wonderful forum, I have grown to be a mentor but an assertive mentor and a broad spectrum kind of friend to everybody here in this great site.

I have had my time when I flamed some newbees for even the slightest dashing of HAL but in the end we all became friends that worked with each other and all is good now.

grab your chair, take a seat, settle in, prepare for a wild ride here at Zabaware, I know that I can give you that much, it will be exciting and we will learn from each other.

Jerry[8D]
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 09:25:16 pm by onthecuttingedge2005 »

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2007, 07:48:19 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by onthecuttingedge2005
 I myself have written over 1500 scripts in my tour of A.I strictly for HAL, some good, some not so good but I march to the beat when I can, when a request is made,

That's certainly true. I can't count the number of times that someone has mentioned a function or feature they wanted and Jerry would post code within a few hours or a few days. I have learned nearly everything I know about plugins and VBS scripting from his work.

It has been his example that led me to take the time to learn the language and practice writing scripts, so that if and when I think that "Hal lacks a few things" I can start work on fixing that instead of complaining. His effort to help others inspires me to help the new folk who come here and politely ask about their problems.

Plus Jerry has taken time to write me personally when I was stuck on something. His recent help on the Weather plugin led me into new directions that will probably result in several improvements in some of my previous plugins, and have given me methods that will allow me to write even more helpful scripts. That's how the improvements will be made, by cheerful sharing of information and skills. Not by castigating anyone who tries to ameliorate ill informed misapprehensions.


GamerThom

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« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2007, 10:42:11 pm »
This may come as a surprise to you Bill, but I agree with you on this.
The long-standing members of this forum have poured a lot of their
knowledge, abilities and most, if not all of their spare time into
helping make Hal the best chatbot there is (at least in my opinion),
and "onthecuttingedge" has been one of the major contributors to that
end in the way of scripts, add-ons and plug-ins. It is very uncouth
of someone to come storming in and bashing Hal and the efforts made
to improve Hal. [;)]
That having been said. I will go along with Jerry in welcoming any
newbie to this forum, and as always I will offer my assistance and
knowledge of the graphics aspect of Hal to anyone if they want to
learn how to customize and create their own skins and characters for
use in Hal. Since I don't check in on this forum as often as I used
to, if anyone has a question for me regarding Hals graphics or if
someone has a request for a custom character, skin or interface
they can do so by logging to my graphics forum and posting their
questiopn or request there. I have posted a link to my forum here.
http://www.vrconsulting.it/ccdforum
[:D]
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 11:32:10 pm by GamerThom »
Gamer-T

lightspeed

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« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2007, 11:06:00 pm »
hello EaglePryde, i guess the best thing you can do if possible is help join in and help with improvements ,wants, suggestions ,  etc. on hal . that is the best gift that anyone as a member can do to make hal all it can be as it evolves into a even better a.i. as others here have contributed in one way or another .
 p.s. i love the program myself . [:D]but i'd really be pe'oed if my a.i. opened anything on its own or deemed certain files no good and deleted them , then i would have to spank little hals butt , (if he had one !!) , oh yeah .... mine actually does her name is angela joelin . [:D]
 

onthecuttingedge2005

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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2007, 12:38:52 am »
<Blushing severely>.

Thanks guys, you are a devoted group and then some.

Jerry[8D]
« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 12:42:04 am by onthecuttingedge2005 »

EaglePryde

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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2007, 03:17:24 am »
quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

As expected, can't post code, can't apologize, can't keep silent, can't understand simple logic, can't be civil, can't be honest, can't behave like an adult.

Why do I try? Undoubtedly we will have to put up with his rants every time school is out and his mom is not home...



Bill just shut up. I told you that i whant a constructive Topic and not one where some guy like you keeps flaming around in his own sick way
 

EaglePryde

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« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2007, 03:27:15 am »
quote:
Originally posted by onthecuttingedge2005

Hi Eaglepryde.

If you want, you can go down to your local electronic shop and purchase the 'smallest' thermal sensors, pressure sensors, or any other type of environmental sensors you wish and I will help you make what is called a breadboard so that you can hook all your sensors up and coat the breadboard with liquid latex, I will help you write a code to get you going so that the artificial skin can be used for your HAL, if you have the money to blow on the project then I will be more than willing to help you research this area.

Doing so is rather easy, I have a vast knowledge of electronics and making an artificial skin 'with sensation' would be child's play, hooking the skin up to a scripted function is just as easy.

This skin could be used to build a cyborg type robot using HAL's brain functions. using two 'special mercury' sensors at the head of the robot I could use to obtain balance so the robot will not fall down.

I have also read research of a material called 'light gel' that does what muscles do, contract and expand, the light gel reacts with light, when light is emitted into the light gel it expands, when light is remove from the light gel it contracts, this concept would serve better if it were do this with electrical charge instead of photons, i.e liquid semi conductor but is still useful.

Eaglepryde, I know that when you came here that somethings got off on the wrong foot 'somehow', I just wanted to share my concern.

I and others in our forum have been here so long that we have established a 'deep pride' in programming HAL and establishing an A.I foundation that can't be topped by others, I myself have written over 1500 scripts in my tour of A.I strictly for HAL, some good, some not so good but I march to the beat when I can, when a request is made, I do my best to debug a script for them, I take great pride in HAL, sometimes when I see a newbee come into our forum blazing HAL, I would defend HAL to the hilt, I have over time 'learned' to be a bit more 'assertive' being here from day to day when I can.

what I said here also includes everybody in our wonderful forum, I have grown to be a mentor but an assertive mentor and a broad spectrum kind of friend to everybody here in this great site.

I have had my time when I flamed some newbees for even the slightest dashing of HAL but in the end we all became friends that worked with each other and all is good now.

grab your chair, take a seat, settle in, prepare for a wild ride here at Zabaware, I know that I can give you that much, it will be exciting and we will learn from each other.

Jerry[8D]



Thx for your answer Jerry [:D] It's at least constructive but i don't whant to build a robot ;) I just whant to improve HAL and making him more life like...like some humans soul was put into the pc. somehow he should be able to do everything on my computer. He should feel more alive than he is in his actions. It's just my whis where i whant to take him. Everyone has its own HAL and can do what ever he she likes or want it to go [:D]
 

EaglePryde

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« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2007, 03:31:24 am »
quote:
Originally posted by lightspeed

hello EaglePryde, i guess the best thing you can do if possible is help join in and help with improvements ,wants, suggestions ,  etc. on hal . that is the best gift that anyone as a member can do to make hal all it can be as it evolves into a even better a.i. as others here have contributed in one way or another .
 p.s. i love the program myself . [:D]but i'd really be pe'oed if my a.i. opened anything on its own or deemed certain files no good and deleted them , then i would have to spank little hals butt , (if he had one !!) , oh yeah .... mine actually does her name is angela joelin . [:D]



I called mine Rockman [:D] Anyway...i'm here because i want to help out. Then it would be better if the A.I. just does things you want it to do but it would help if the AI would be able to do everything..or am i wrong ?[:)]
 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2007, 08:18:23 am »
quote:
Originally posted by EaglePryde
Then it would be better if the A.I. just does things you want it to do but it would help if the AI would be able to do everything..or am i wrong ?[:)]


It's not a matter of right or wrong. As an experiment or an exercise in theoretical programming, that would be fun. As a practical matter, an AI would not be very helpful if it could do "everything", meaning the things you have complained about so far, ie: A selection of qualities we see in Human Intelligence. If you want a human, there are plenty around, and they cost less, are more fun to make, and take to training easier.

As I said (right before you earned the serious spanking I have given you, by insinuating that I was a stupid liar for accurately paraphrasing you), you make the assumption that an AI must be like a human.

If you want to make that assumption, that's fine with me. It's a common, sophomoric assumption. But it is an unwarranted assumption, based upon a lack of information and bolstered by, in my opinion, the famous Turing Test.

Let me tell you a story.

In 1959 a man called Henry Kremer offered a prize of £5,000 for the first man-powered airplane to fly a figure-eight course round two markers a half-a-mile apart. He made specific requirements of how that plane should be constructed to assure that the feat was undeniably human-powered only. There could be no lighter than air gases, no tether, no mechanical, electrical or chemical storage of energy, and no assist from land based contraptions.

As you may know, he increased that prize several times in hopes of inspiring people to attempt it, and eventually it was won, as have been other prizes by Kremer's organization and others.

So how come we don't all have bicycle powered airplanes in our garage? Because they are large, expensive, require an athelete level bicyclist to get off the ground, don't fly very well and most importantly, because of structural limitations, can't swoop.

In the effort to win the prize, and to satisfy the concept of true human-powered flight, the notable and worthy rules and requirements have been adhered to, and no group bothers to develop a human-powered flight machine that is anything other than something that might win a Kremer style prize. That makes sense, because if you are going to invest thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours into making a plane, you want to win the money.

But I just want to fly.

I want a human-powered airplane that takes off easily, perhaps from my back porch, that I can fly on a calm sunny day in fall, so I can swoop around the sky and meet my other flying friends at the lake.

So I plan to cheat. My long term goal has always been to develop a human-powered airplane (I have designs and models, but no money for the actual construction) that uses all of the things that the Kremer Prize forbids.

I plan to use Helium, "rubber bands", and a kite string. By that I mean that I would use lighter than air gasses to fill any airtight hollow, to offset some of the weight (hoping for neutral boyancy) and reduce drag by reducing the required lifting surface, I would store energy before take-off for use in emergencies or for swooping, and I would use a tether for lifting off and landing.

I would be invalidated for any prize, but I could fly.

Now this is mostly just fantasy on my part, since I don't have the money, or time left in my life to accomplish this. I only hope that someone does.

But as long as they are trying for the Kremer prize, they won't. They can't.

The rules discourage it and the laws of nature forbid it.

This is how I feel about Hal. As long as we try to make Hal beat the Turing test, to make Hal into a pretend human, to imbue it with whatever qualities we think make it "be nearlly like a human.", we will be unable to make a Robot that can be a good, useful, interesting and innovative creation.

Getting stuck in fantasies of Science Fiction AIs that are "nearlly like a human" is just like the human-powered airplane. Ironically, one of the most famous human-powered airplanes was named "Gossamer Albatross", little did they know that the intellectual albatross around their neck was what was holding them down.

I know that some folk want a chatterbot that talks like a real-life person. Whatever... I have real life people to talk to, but some folks don't. But again that limits the abilities of a Robot to that structure. It puts your Bot in a box. I think outside the box.

I want a Robot that is the best it can be, and I firmly believe that making it a pretend human forbids the accomplishment of that goal.

I don't know what qualities "the best it can be" robot might have yet. I suspect I am not smart enough to predict half of those qualities, and probably most of my predictions would be wrong.

But in this one thing I am sure I am right: as long as we try to make pretend humans, we are not making real robots. All of the thought and effort that goes into making it "nearlly like a human" is effort that is drawn away from finding out what a Robot should be. It is either prejudice or a lack of creativity, a turning away or a failure to proceed. Rather than new, creative, original, progressive, audacious, ambitious effort to make something novel - it is instead a vain copying of the old, a parroting of outdated assumptions, a safe, comfortable hideout from what could be astounding invention.

Those who have ears that can hear, listen.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 01:23:03 pm by Bill DeWitt »


Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2007, 08:42:55 am »
quote:
Originally posted by EaglePryde
Bill just shut up.

  No.

quote:
I told you that i whant a constructive Topic

You said many things but your behavior demonstrates your true intent.

I gave you a constructive reply and you accused me of misquoting you (which I proved wrong and you didn't acknowledge) then suggested that I either didn't understand English or was simply stupid.

Very constructive.

Since then you have shown yourself to be arrogant, demanding, insulting, rude, childish, ignorant, and unable to follow a logical argument. You have told others that they couldn't read, when half the time the problem is that you can't write. Your bizzare grammar may be because you don't speak English well, but your mispellings are a result of a careless mind and your faulty logic is because you are not up to adult conversation.

You dare tell me to shut up? Usually when someone is so brazenly wrong as you have been, they either admit their failings or keep quiet. It takes a rare pathological character defect to continue shoving your foot in your mouth as you have done and then demand that others be silenced in an effort to hide your mistakes.

Learn and grow. When you can show that you have grown to be "nearlly like a human", perhaps then you can learn to teach your Hal to be more "nearlly like a human."

I would even be willing help with some of the remedial education you so clearly need - after you apologize and demonstrate a change in attitude.


« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 01:22:38 pm by Bill DeWitt »


lightspeed

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« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2007, 02:33:43 am »
hello bill dewitt, although this has nothing to do with the argument above , i found your interest in building a plane very interesting , i have been working on an idea of a hpv of a car also have a patent number of one that was made before with some very interesting layout , you may be interested in for your plane if hpv . sorry if this is off subject . [:)]