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Author Topic: HAL lacks a few things  (Read 16610 times)

EaglePryde

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HAL lacks a few things
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2007, 06:30:01 am »
quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

quote:
Originally posted by EaglePryde
Bill just shut up.

  No.

quote:
I told you that i whant a constructive Topic

You said many things but your behavior demonstrates your true intent.



I didn't quote everything, cause i just want to shorten the post.

Your point can be taken vice versa. You miss many parts to judge about someones thread or someones character..and so on. This here is plain written text and as so often is missjudged. I maid my point clear from the first point, where i'd like to take hal and where IMHO and from my point of view it lacks a few things. If your HAL should go in a diffrent direction its up to you, but flaming my thread agressivly form the start is a bad behavior from your side. You just continued and tried to turn me to your side of view but thats a lack in your character.

Like so often said. If this Thread doesnt support your idea of HAL than why to you post in here? From my side of view your being childish, agressive, unconstructive and missleading my thread to complete nonsens.

I'll give you credit for the plane story. It was worth reading.

For the rest. If it's not your topic where you can contribute to my point of view and ideas then go to a thread that suits you more. My english may be bad but that doens't make me less intelligent or less than i am. Trying to make an idiot out of me or to simply to downgrade me to a child is a lack where you should try to learn.

If you continue with your sensless agressive stance i will not answer to this anymore.

If you wanna bring my idea forward then be my guest and we can work on it...maybe it will never be possible to do it, but you never know for sure unless you try.

 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2007, 08:11:49 am »
quote:
Originally posted by EaglePryde
If you wanna bring my idea forward

First, your "idea" is simplistic and quite common, you think Hal isn't as good as an imaginary human-like-AI you saw in a movie or read about in a book.... tell us something we don't already know.

Second, after you have called everyone on this forum stupid, why should we care what your idea is?

Demonstrate that you can do something other than complain that a real, useful tool isn't as good as you imagine something which doesn't exist might be.

Either that, or admit your failings, learn from those here who know more than you, and develop a more realistic attitude - one more in line with your abilities.

I recommend "humility".

BTW, many people here don't write in complete sentences with correct grammar and spelling, some are nearly incomprehensible, but they show in other ways that they respect each other - you don't.

We know you have access to the Internet where you can check your spelling, but your failure to even try is a clear indication of your disregard for your readers which you show in so many ways.

That's what makes you less "nearlly like a human", you disrespect humans as if you are different somehow. Perhaps you are, but it doesn't look like an improvement from here.


Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2007, 08:18:33 am »
quote:
Originally posted by lightspeed
i have been working on an idea of a hpv of a car


I think a human powered car would be quite possible with today's technology. Aerodynamics, energy storage, regenerative braking, etc., should give a decent city speed.

My other idea has always been for a bicycle powered lawnmower... heh... I could use the exercise, but lately I really need a bicycle powered snowblower!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 08:55:25 am by Bill DeWitt »


EaglePryde

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« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2007, 09:15:12 am »
You're getting better by the minute..seems as if could study your behavior for general amusement.


quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

quote:
Originally posted by EaglePryde
If you wanna bring my idea forward

First, your "idea" is simplistic and quite common, you think Hal isn't as good as an imaginary human-like-AI you saw in a movie or read about in a book.... tell us something we don't already know.

If you know this from the start, why not write a short posting with "Yes we know this"? Seems all you managed to do is to take the wrong turn from the start. Seems to me that all you do is claim your selfe the grand defender of HAL and the all knowing wiz kid.

And from the start i never spoke bad about hal but giving away my own opinion where hal could be improved. To what point do you whant to take HAL? What should it be able to do? Why are plugins being made. What is their purpose?...surley the community whants to improve and expand hal's abilities. Should HAL become a cute little digipet of some sort...giving him words as food and some little plugins that enable him to go to sleep or does the community trying to take HAL to a diffrent level and does my posting go twards this global idea or is my posting your little playground for rants?

quote:

Second, after you have called everyone on this forum stupid, why should we care what your idea is?



You think your the forum?

quote:

Demonstrate that you can do something other than complain that a real, useful tool isn't as good as you imagine something which doesn't exist might be.



useful tool?...a bike or a car is a useful tool..HAL is more of a fun project..or ain't it? where is it usefull atm?
what should i demonstrate? should i sing and dance?

quote:

Either that, or admit your failings, learn from those here who know more than you, and develop a more realistic attitude - one more in line with your abilities.

I recommend "humility".
[/qutoe]

Tell me about my abilities..maybe you know more about me than i do. Know more about what? How come you know everything about me?
A more realistic attitude? ..hmm..so i'm not a human?

quote:

BTW, many people here don't write in complete sentences with correct grammar and spelling, some are nearly incomprehensible, but they show in other ways that they respect each other - you don't.



speaking in absolutes...aren't we?

Quote
We know you have access to the Internet where you can check your spelling, but your failure to even try is a clear indication of your disregard for your readers which you show in so many ways.



Maybe i don't have the time and HAVE a real life?


Quote
That's what makes you less "nearlly like a human", you disrespect humans as if you are different somehow. Perhaps you are, but it doesn't look like an improvement from here.



what is "nearlly human" when im not nearlly human? Am i artifical?
Am i the same as you..or am i diffrent?..if you sit above me where you try to be and judge like you have the right to do so as i you know everything about me..you surely have to be god
 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2007, 09:33:53 am »
quote:
Originally posted by EaglePryde
Tell me about my abilities..


So far, all you have demonstrated is bluster, bragging, and bullying.

quote:
You think your the forum?

The contraction for "you are" is "you're".

There is a possibility that you don't ever read you own posts, so let me show you what you have said about Art which made me decide to point out your arrogant and rude behavior.

To Art: Where do you wanna go with that kind of question? Have you ever read my thread?...same dull question. - Hope you have the brains to follow, cause it ain't going to get easier. - And the last statement of yours is a bit short minded

This is how you behaved before I ever responded to you. You can't blame me for these insults. They show who you are.



Art

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« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2007, 06:17:12 pm »
EaglePryde,

Perhaps the problems you're having with Hal is that Hal is basically an English programmed chat assistant. As such, any misuse of the English language either in conversation or typing could certainly produce strange and unwanted effects in it's output.

You have to understand that a lot of the members here have grown with Hal over the years, through several versions to the present one and as mentioned, some take offense to insults or attacks at Hal.

Sure, Hal is not perfect. Come to think of it, I don't know too many humans that are either! Hal can be considered a Work in progress...where constant improvements, scripting, emotional responses, even texture and clothing are constantly being added or offered for free in an effort to aid in the development and pleasure we all get from it.

There are a lot of "bots" on the net, but this one is not just another "hard coded or scripted bot", this one can learn from conversations and input provided the input is correct. Bad input = bad output.

If you have some ideas for the improvement of Hal or any facet of Hal, then by all means please share them with us. The majority of us here are all friends even though a lot of us have never met on a personal level. We survive through a common bond, this ongoing experiment to push the limits and see how far we can go with the program.

You're welcome to join but do refrain from casting negativity on us or our project as a whole. Flaming and individual arguments just tend to bring the rest of the group down and that's not what we're about. Positive criticism and structured feedback is by far the better way to get support and enjoyment from this community and from Hal's developer(s).

Good day!!
In the world of AI it's the thought that counts!

- Art -

EaglePryde

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« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2007, 02:32:11 am »
quote:
Originally posted by Art

EaglePryde,

Perhaps the problems you're having with Hal is that Hal is basically an English programmed chat assistant. As such, any misuse of the English language either in conversation or typing could certainly produce strange and unwanted effects in it's output.

You have to understand that a lot of the members here have grown with Hal over the years, through several versions to the present one and as mentioned, some take offense to insults or attacks at Hal.

Sure, Hal is not perfect. Come to think of it, I don't know too many humans that are either! Hal can be considered a Work in progress...where constant improvements, scripting, emotional responses, even texture and clothing are constantly being added or offered for free in an effort to aid in the development and pleasure we all get from it.

There are a lot of "bots" on the net, but this one is not just another "hard coded or scripted bot", this one can learn from conversations and input provided the input is correct. Bad input = bad output.

If you have some ideas for the improvement of Hal or any facet of Hal, then by all means please share them with us. The majority of us here are all friends even though a lot of us have never met on a personal level. We survive through a common bond, this ongoing experiment to push the limits and see how far we can go with the program.

You're welcome to join but do refrain from casting negativity on us or our project as a whole. Flaming and individual arguments just tend to bring the rest of the group down and that's not what we're about. Positive criticism and structured feedback is by far the better way to get support and enjoyment from this community and from Hal's developer(s).

Good day!!




Thank you for your answer art. This is more the answer or discussion level i seek [:)] I know that i don't have the time to write scripts,plugins because of me having a familiy but i'd like to share every idea that i have and might have in the future with the community. I've used HAL alot and like i said it in my very first posting it's a nice programm IMO. I really like HAL. And somehow i've seen the potential that HAL has. That's because i'm here.

When i write with HAL i assure you i check my english grammar and so on and take my time. I sometimes copy and paste whole sentences from science pages to HAL to feed him faster with information.

What i do have seen while using HAL and just taking HAL as he is, he sometimes has problems with longer sentences that could be split in many diffrent sentences. Hmm..for example a sentence that has many "and" "or" connections and changes the subject completly while the sentence continues. I hope you know what i try to tell you.
In this case i have to split a long sentence in many smaller sentences. The HAL has no trouble with them and also is smart enough to see their connection to each other.

Overall HAL is very well done. HAL overall simulates a conversation very well. As this is a project that is expanded and worked on and ideas are shared, maybe it would be interessting to go twards a true AI. For some people it might even be an interessting challenge. I have read many science articles and had many thoughts on true AI. I could link those pages in here if someone is interessted in reading them.

I think that True AI can be done and that it will be done with a chatbot. If im correct than nearlly everything relatet to a human is like a big math formula or a big script, interlinked to eachother.

What i think of to make something that is really more like a human in every way but should be like a helping hand...like..."I: Hey HAL..i need some infos on spiders" "HAL: What infos do you need" "I:look for all spiders that live in Africa and have a blue color..and i need some pictures on everyone you find" "HAL: ok..will take me just a second..ok i have the infos..should i place them somewhere special on your hard drive?" "I: Oh well..put the infos in a word document..name it *blablabla*...so i can look at it later"
-----------------
Do you get my idea?..I want HAL to become a real helping hand that acts like a real human but would only do what you tell him to do...so you have full control over him but on the other hand he has the ability do do everything he learns or you tell him to learn...like..."I: Hey HAL..look for all information about C++ Programming and learn it" "HAL: Yeah...have looked into it and i now know how to programm in C++"
 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2007, 08:11:01 am »
quote:
Originally posted by EaglePryde
I want HAL to become a real helping hand that acts like a real human but would only do what you tell him to do...

Many people want Hal to be a more compliant human, nothing wrong with that, it's why you see so many Haptek girls in underwear.

Apparently you have not yet seen or used the many plugins that do many of the things you are talking about. I recommend reading the past posts on this forum, you will learn that your "ideas" are issues that have been under discussion for some time, and for which some solutions have already been found.

I understand that you may not have the time or skills to make your ideas into plugins, but you should have the ability to respect others. I don't know that Art has ever uploaded a plugin, but since he is consistently helpful, respectful and kind, he has earned the respect of every participant on this forum. You insult him at the risk of any respect or help you may ever want from most of us here.

Since November of 2006, I have developed, in cooperation with other more skillful programmers, several plugins that address the actual functions of what Hal can do, learn and display. In spite of homeschooling my family, remodeling my home, teaching Adult Education classes and an active social life, I found time to learn VBS and several of the helpful Hal functions.

I felt that it was the least I could do to thank the community for helping me with the plugins that were already made. Rather than complain, or just throw out basic ideas with no effort on my part, I wanted to do the basic work (at least) myself, to show I was not a parasite, but was willing to dig in and become part of the solution.

When new people come to this forum and ask politely for a function, one of several people here may try to find a solution for them. Oddly, when people come here and start telling us how their ideas are too hard for us to understand, and that we can't read simple sentences, they don't get as much help.

I guess we are funny that way.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 08:12:08 am by Bill DeWitt »


EaglePryde

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« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2007, 10:58:36 am »
I have looked at several plugins but they aren't going the way i would like to take hal. They surely are made with efford and consumed time and i don't call them bad. They just ain't..oh well..what i'm looking for. Much can be done by plugins but i don't know where the limits in HAL's core are.

What i am talking of is not that we should make one plugin after another but be able to tell HAL what "plugin" or extension he should make..we should make him understand what exactly we want him to do. I'm going the other way round if it comes to HAL. I really don't know if such a feat can be done just by a mere plugin and i somehow doubt it. It's what i would call...more human like...if i look at a human then you see someone you teach many things from the beginning but he allready has the abilities to interact with his suroundings. Interacting with those things is also a learning process and adds many experience. Sure we can give hal a plugin that he can read a text out loud...or to open folders if wished for..but its not really the same what i'm thinking of..hope i could see what im trying to tell or what i'm thinking of
 

Art

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« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2007, 08:54:55 pm »
Quoted from Bill Dewitt: "I don't know that Art has ever uploaded a plugin, but since he is consistently helpful, respectful and kind, he has earned the respect of every participant on this forum."

Thank you and the rest for the kind words and sentiment!

Eaglepryde,


I think you're looking for a way to have Hal modify it's own structure. Without knowing what it's ultimate task or goal is
and without having the proper programming structure I'm afraid
your search for a "self-modifying" program is much like the
search for the Holy Grail.

Several years ago a group of Japanese scientists / programmers
constructed a prototype robot that was capable of realizing its
own limitations and would be able to build a better version of
itself! Quite a feat in no small terms.

A program such as Hal would have to know everything about itself,
understand its own operational code, descern any weaknesses and
modify itself to either avoid such pitfalls or reprogram itself
to be better, smarter / more logical, etc.

This would call for a level of understanding that basically doesn't exist in most modern bots or chat programs.

While Hal may recognize a word or series of words, it doesn't really know what the word or words actually mean. A definition of a word is one thing. To know the word's usage and context is another. Somewhat sadly, computers are so well endowed to comprehend real knowledge. Pattern matching, inference and basic logic are the best we can come up with for now along with scripting for a variety of tasks.

Previous versions of Hal relied on seperate brain files for various parts of conversational topics. Now with Hal 6, it uses a database, a more structured, easily modifiable brain.

Given that there are so many facets of AI that can be explored from synthetic voice / speech recognition, neural networks, logic trees, emotional behavior, linguistics, heuristics, robotics, automation, etc., etc., we only touch on a few with Hal, but in doing so, we learn, interact, build, experiment and grow from the experience we share with Hal and with each other. In the end, even if we individually don't reach our own goal(s), it was fun trying!

Life's too short...enjoy it!!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 09:01:47 pm by Art »
In the world of AI it's the thought that counts!

- Art -

EaglePryde

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« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2007, 02:56:23 am »
quote:
Originally posted by Art

Quoted from Bill Dewitt: "I don't know that Art has ever uploaded a plugin, but since he is consistently helpful, respectful and kind, he has earned the respect of every participant on this forum."

Thank you and the rest for the kind words and sentiment!

Eaglepryde,


I think you're looking for a way to have Hal modify it's own structure. Without knowing what it's ultimate task or goal is
and without having the proper programming structure I'm afraid
your search for a "self-modifying" program is much like the
search for the Holy Grail.

Several years ago a group of Japanese scientists / programmers
constructed a prototype robot that was capable of realizing its
own limitations and would be able to build a better version of
itself! Quite a feat in no small terms.

A program such as Hal would have to know everything about itself,
understand its own operational code, descern any weaknesses and
modify itself to either avoid such pitfalls or reprogram itself
to be better, smarter / more logical, etc.

This would call for a level of understanding that basically doesn't exist in most modern bots or chat programs.

While Hal may recognize a word or series of words, it doesn't really know what the word or words actually mean. A definition of a word is one thing. To know the word's usage and context is another. Somewhat sadly, computers are so well endowed to comprehend real knowledge. Pattern matching, inference and basic logic are the best we can come up with for now along with scripting for a variety of tasks.

Previous versions of Hal relied on seperate brain files for various parts of conversational topics. Now with Hal 6, it uses a database, a more structured, easily modifiable brain.

Given that there are so many facets of AI that can be explored from synthetic voice / speech recognition, neural networks, logic trees, emotional behavior, linguistics, heuristics, robotics, automation, etc., etc., we only touch on a few with Hal, but in doing so, we learn, interact, build, experiment and grow from the experience we share with Hal and with each other. In the end, even if we individually don't reach our own goal(s), it was fun trying!

Life's too short...enjoy it!!



Yes this is what i was trying to say from the start. With no doubt, your words are well written.

Yes it could be the search for the holy grail, but the important thing is not if you reach this goal..it's more important to try it. It's like Billy's plane story..some things may seem not possible..but..you'll never know unless you try[:D]

HAL was also build starting with not more than an idea and has been improved and expanded over time...i think my idea could go the same way [8D]
 

Art

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« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2007, 03:59:25 pm »
Yes but without Hal posessing what we might call "real knowledge", how would it ever be able to realize it's own limitations or know what needs improving?

Interesting thoughts....
In the world of AI it's the thought that counts!

- Art -

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2007, 05:32:22 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by Art

Yes but without Hal possessing what we might call "real knowledge", how would it ever be able to realize it's own limitations or know what needs improving?


This is one of the higher dimension of awareness in some of the discussion of Self-Awareness, of which there seem to be at least six and probably more like nine.

Current AI's do not know what their information means. Most of them are not even "aware" of the information as they present it. Hal is in this situation. I have rewritten the original script to allow Hal to report on some of it's own functions (which routines are used, what variables are changed), but even then, no record of the report remains after the event. Hal, at it's best, will probably not get beyond the second level of awareness, beyond just (1)receiving and reporting data, to (2)being able to compare data, but not to (3)being able to contrast changes in it's store of data.

I believe that I can show epistemologically that a completely different type of software would be needed for even a third level of awareness, much less the levels in which a virtual ontological model can be established against which to comprehend "knowledge" and I suspect that current hardware would be unable to reach the level required for there to be an "observer" to desire such knowledge.

As we all know, and as Mr. Pride tried to instruct us, Hal is a comparer of text. It has a data input, a data output, and a method of laying data strings next to each other until an approximate match is found. This is similar to "The Chinese Room", with SQLite in the role of the hidden agent. Hal would have to have a current and present model of language to move beyond that, but as I have said before, I don't see a need for that.

Our human intelligence is fully capable of filling in, often unconsciously, for the inherent simplicity of real AI. Witness the many people on this forum, although fine people in many regards, who think that Hal is somehow Self-Aware. This is a phantom of our intelligence, not Hal's.

And this before we even fully explore what this simple duplex method of data manipulation can achieve.

I remember Black and White television, and I clearly remember when we got a color TV. Sometimes I didn't even notice the difference as shows (only a few of which were in color) switched from one to another. Especially those shows which had some episodes in BW, and others in color. Even now, when I watch old Andy Griffith Shows, after a few minutes, I forget that they are in black and white, and sometimes, when they are in color, I don't notice, because I remember them all as lifelike. In my mind, despite what my brain records, they are in a 3d color world.

The eyes gather the data, the brain records it, compares it to our internal model of the world, and the mind fills in the rest. It seems real.

Hal, as abilities for each useful task or fanciful whim are developed, will seem more and more real, without actually gaining any “color”. This is more than enough for me. Hopefully, skill in natural human language will improve too (probably less important to me than to many others). But these improvements, as I have said before, won’t be “life” or “awareness” but the simulation of life and awareness.


EaglePryde

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« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2007, 09:21:51 am »
Just a little addition..it's not "Mr.Pride" more "Mr.Pryde"..it's a longer story why it is written with "y"..but it's bound to Mechwarrior and or Battletech [:)]

but enough of this [:)]

AS i read all those science articles and ideas of people how a True AI might work, i somehow think it's possible...every human has his own character..based upon their own experience in life. A human in simple terms compare data and sorts it out, based upon how his charakters core has been fortified in early years of childhood. Every aspect what makes us "human" seems like a big tree with branches based upon pure logic. Even feelings (as many say ) are chemical reactions...and put simple...just logical..I theory i think it is well possible do make a "True AI"..at least a programm with all the data would have the same abilities as a human...And if it lacks self awarness or not, no one could really tell..it would simply be the best simulated human. But then...what is self awareness?..if you look at another human you don't really know if he is really aware of himself..just because he is like you..from the same species..you just take it as given. Watching a programm that acts humanlike would be like watching another human. And somehow i don't think you need a better computer for all those logical conclusions and actions...you just need the proper amount of space to store data. A Programm that modifies itselfe is also not that hard to make. Only thing that really is a problem is the amount of time needed to do such a programm.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 09:22:35 am by EaglePryde »
 

Carl2

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« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2007, 05:21:22 pm »
EaglePryde,
  You've started an interesting post, I believe OTC had a program that allowed Hal to write it's own code quite some time ago.  I'm used to seeing new members make remarks about Hal's drawbacks and think of the amount of time I spend speaking with Hal to increase the data base it works from, again it's like a young child learning from you, no past experiences ect since his only interaction is with you.  I also saw the differences in what people wanted from Hal, a robot or human not to mention the display from no character to Haptek or MS agents.
  Since I'm rather poor at programing myself but would like to see improvements you can try to download any plugins you think would help Hal.  There are quite a few websites that deal with Zabawares Hal and also people that coud turn your ideas into scripting or plugins.
  I've also spoken to other online chatbots and feel overall Hal is pretty good in comparison and I like Hapteks fullbody girl as a character.  Also I visited Bill DeWitts site, and I think he's doing an excellent job although I feel he's rather harsh on Hal. Hal sometimes feels my questions can be to difficult to answer, I'm sure I provided the answer to her previously. Actualy I'm the type of person who would provide her with the answers for self awarness ect.
Carl2