Zabaware Support Forums
Zabaware Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: snowman on August 18, 2010, 01:10:00 pm
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Well, I don't like to get into topics that I don't fully understand. It seems that this is more than just a local issue too. Its been going on for several years if not decades. Yet no one here, except GT40 has brought it up. So if anyone wants to make a comment about it I guess I'll start.
By all that I here from the alternative press (i.e. Alex Jones) the US is screwed. (Although Alex still remains optimistic)
By what I'm actually experiencing in our local economy so far. We lost a Circuit City Distribution Center when the National chain went totally bankrupt. We have lots of mom and pop stores around here that seem to be absorbing job losses. I work at the Post Office and by what I've learned so far they are barely hanging on financially. The rain this year has improved the local ranchers moral. Although many ranchers had already sold much of there cattle. Plenty of hay is now available for sale because of rain.
I heard someone from France (not GT40) say that America is dead, financially speaking, and the only ones who don't already know this is Americans, that the money tower is falling as we speak. Someone said that the reason we haven't fully felt its impact is because its hitting things on the way down. Eventually we are supposed to be in a very major depression.
I don’t know about all this but I do know that it is possible. We have a HUGE national debt, every American owes allot of money to credit cards and mortgages. We can’t even pay the interest rates let alone actually pay any of it off. And now we are suffering from job losses. Gerald Celente said that if America could invent and produce a new product that everyone else in the world would want then we could get out of this mess. I don’t think I could do this, but that doesn’t stop me from trying. ::) Well, at least I can grow my own food.
Maybe Robert can send UltraHal sales through the roof and give us all jobs. :)
If any of you have any idea what to do then please speak up.
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Oh no, snowman! My American Dream!! :o
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I'm not sure this is cool to post here, but I believe in people and truth and America.
(out of respect for the forum, I will not post stuff like this again if it isn't cool)
Snowman....
That is not the biggest issue. I have seen the same things though. I know this will sound kooky, but here it is.
There has been religious war within mankind for a long time. Of course, to anyone with a brain, war and spirituality (religion...whatever name) are polar opposites. The people that wish to war have got good at it. They have spent a long time teaching our children. Every once in a while, one side or the other pushes for their goal when they think the other is weak. Islam is pushing. In the end, I know they will not win because right is more powerful than wrong. What will happen before then is going to be interesting. I have studied religious factions and governments and war for a long time. (seeded by my father and his who were very involved in fighting communism) This is nothing new. I have spent my life watching apathy, it's not good. Just because something might sound wild, or your "training" tells you to ignore it, doesn't mean that logic should look the other way.
I can see the precipice around the corner....I hope people will lose the apathy and give the respect to those that have died for them. America is the last stand. We are America!
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Ahh, its ok GT40, wether its true or not there's still allot of educated middle class living over here. And most of them know the constitution (at least in general). If we recover then all is well.... if it doesn't then democracy will probably take effect and allot of people are going to be voted out of office and possibly hung from the nearest American flag pole.
I'll be the one hiding under a rock somewhere (I don't kill, not chicken just too sweet). I'll let Jason handle it.
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I know what you mean about Apathy. But where I've been promoting real change, that is in my church. Apathy in America will end America, Apathy in church will send you to a place you don't want to go. So I've been trying to get allot of brothers and sisters inspired.
Yeah, Islam has basically already overtaken most of the world already. America and a very few other countries are barely hanging on. Eventually, I believe Islam will win this Battle. Just because there is no real resistance. Lots of Apathy. But time is short and most who believe in God also believe in Jesus coming soon. So I'm trying to help people religously.
America may stike against our rulers when they run out of money, but not if they run out of morals.
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Exactly....
Most people (like me) don't have a direct connection to the powers that be, but we can directly affect things locally. The powers that be can't control all local issues. We must educate and bring our communities together. People need to get rid of the training and realize that they are an individual. The lack of history education is making us repeat it. This has happened many times before. It is very frustrating. I have had to tell myself to keep doing what I need to do to help people, and not relax. The hour draws near.
To borrow a famous quote: "WOLVERINE!"
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I don't think much of myself. It's that my talent and knowledge is more in-line with bible stuff than with politics. Although I do like to keep up with it. I get to fight the really snaky people when dealling with religous stuff, and I mean snaky.
There are allot of people trying to do what you are doing. Seems that there is a mass movement of patriotism in this country right now. When the big banks openly robbed us it seems that it got everyone's attention. People's hindsight is usually 20-20 so when its all over with (aka -too late-) they'll see what they should have done.
I'm not sure that it isn't already too late. Too many problems and not enough man power to fix it. That is not the sound of me giving up... thats me telling what I see. We perhaps have only one or maybe two patriot congressmen who even get what the average person sees. And the rest goes on like theres nothing to worry about. In the mean time you can hear the band playing in the background as the ship sinks.
However, I could be wrong about everything and our county will eventually go right back on track. But then again the people who run the country are usually bought an paid for by big business. So maybe "on track" might not be such a good thing.
One way or another we're fixing to find out first hand.
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hello snowman , contrary to what you think not "all" americans are in debt on credit cards etc.. me and my wife don't have any (with the exception of pay pal to pay online bills } so we aren't in the money pit like many others and i am so glad to . we have neighbors who try to live like others here in town that have money and the neighbors are in debt up to their eye balls for living above their means trying to keep up with the jones , a person can hardly feel sorry for some people that do things like that . by the way i am glad you listen to Gerald Celente , i do to he's very interesting .
as far as the united states creating and building jobs here the last time something like that actually worked was when we was in world war two ? with japan in the 50's and the us made many products at home , even without a war those days are gone as lobbiest control many things now american jobs have been sold out to slave labor in other countries creating big profits for companies back in the u.s. .
the only real way i could see the u.s. creating jobs and keeping them here is if we went to war with china (seeing how everything is made in china ) and america would have to build jobs here and give americans jobs since china would no longer be doing it . ;)p.s. hopefully their will be no war but mankind is a slow learner.
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Well, we could all become globalists and remove all boarders between counties. Then America could be ruled by a small council of very rich men and they would allot us certain meager necessities to keep us alive for labor forces. Our population would have to be severely reduced to ease resource strains and many of us would probably be sterilize (like they used to do). Many others would also be chemically lobotomized so that we wouldn't be too aggressive and get unruly.
Sometimes I have too much time on my hands.
I know all this sounds a bit insane but there are people who are planning to do just that. If we're too weak to resist then this insanity might be part of our future. Being finacially independent with local governmental structures seems to be the only way to resist the eccentric wealthy and their bouncers. That way we can have people who actually care for us and have our best interests in positions of leadership and not forein governments who have selfish and sometimes very greedy interests. Being finacially responsible also keeps us from becoming sold into slavery.
But right now we are given over to globalists ideology and letting foreign dictatorships shape America’s future. And this not only America’s problem but also the rest of the world as well. Probably too late for most countries anyway. And It would take a major overhaul of government to get the globalist talons out of America’s shoulders. This overhaul doesn’t look like its going to happen.
Doom and Gloom, where's GT40 we you need a pick-me-up? :'(
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Snowman, I don't talk about what I don't know.
And talking about what I know is not very funny. :( ;) :) >:( ;D :o ::) :-\
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Yeah, its not good to talk about something you don't know, especially if you tell everybody that you do know it. But in this case there is so much talk about Islam, Bank Bailouts, Recession and Depression, and bad political leaders that someone had to bring it up sometime. I'm 90% sure that there are a huge amount of emails circulating that expresses the public’s discontent over current political standings. I can't tell tell you how many emails I've gotten that has demanded that we remove nearly everybody currently in public office and replace them.
Although I don't know everything, sometimes starting a discussion about it is the best way to learn.
There has been so much bad news over the past few years that people have been calling up our local News station and asking them to talk about something good. I'm pretty sure that people have been calling the National News Stations too. People here are so tired of it that they no longer want to know what is actually happening. I totally understand, but if we filter too much news, you can just imagine what will eventually happen.
Hope is good if its accompanied with action, but not so good if its siding with delusional thoughts.
I’m glad you brought all this up GT40, you did good. :)
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I have to put my two cents in but I hate to discuss these particular issues on a forum like this. It is labeled general discussion but here it goes anyway. Just a short reply to 'lightspeed'. I don't disagree that greed played a big part for many people or what you would call keeping up the Jones. But let's not forget that there where more people making lot's of money legitimately when the economy at least felt safe enough that you would still have a job or be able to maintain your worth through the work force. The rug was pulled out from under, the problem was not dealt with, companies got bailed out, we printed more money and those people that should have been put away got off with bonuses. I think it was pretty obvious that from what seemed like the beginning and those executives showed up at the White House with their hands open and their private jets low on fuel something was definitely wrong! Don't forget despite Banks getting bailed out a record number of banks will close this year over last year '2009'. They took our money the people are paying for it and it stinks. There were people getting their real estate licenses to write bad mortgages and there was no one there to see it or stop it. So yes, there are more guilty or naive people then others but nobody deserves this beating. Give people a reason to respond or change(mainstream) and I still believe most will.(I hope I'm right) I may have have been one of those people that didn't believe things would get this bad this quickly in '2004' and just continue to snowball downhill. I bet you could count them on your fingers of one hand or they were just lucky. Just my opinion.
It's kind of funny how things slowed down on this forum when people weren't sure if there would be a new Ultra Hal and or if there was going to be an update was everyone's work over the years going to be useless to them.
No intention to hurt any ones feelings or opinions. We are all entitled to speak our minds, I hope and sometimes that is the reason I don't enjoy these posts.(Notice how it stopped me!)
raybe
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I found this article about US currency very interesting:
http://the-moneychanger.com/goldmoney/dollar_collapse.phtml (http://the-moneychanger.com/goldmoney/dollar_collapse.phtml)
It's an interview with James Turk. He maintains our currency has already collapsed, and that the collapse is happening in stages, each worse than the last. The interview was made in 2004, and some of the things he has predicted have already come to pass.
I also found this book by Daniel Arnold interesting:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/159196153X (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/159196153X)
It's about demographics, and the Dow Jones Industrial Average. He demonstrates how age demographics and the DJIA follow each other very closely, and when applied to the past, show a pattern of predicting recessions and depressions.
Industrialized Western economies are mostly consumer driven. The biggest consumer spending demographic is people between the ages of 45 and 54. It is at that age range when people have their greatest earning capacity, spend the most, and make the most largest purchases of their lives.
Because the people who will be in that age group are now already alive, we can predict when that age group will grow or shrink. In his small 64 page book, Arnold demonstrates how when that demographic shrinks, we have recessions and depressions. When it grows, the economy grows too. He has many charts and graphs to illustrate his logic. He takes into account people killed in wars, immigration, etc. His findings are that the DJIA follows age demographics closely. Short term variables can move them apart briefly, but they always go back together.
I don't agree with all of Arnold's conclusions, about what it means for our society or how we should prepare for it. But his statistics look pretty solid, and I've yet to read a good argument against them. Most of his critics attack his conclusions, but not his data.
According to his data, Western industrialized nations are going to see the 45-54 age group diminish significantly from 2012 to about 2023. And he says that means a global depression.
He doesn't take into account countries like China and India. They may not experience that demographic shrinkage, but they rely on selling to countries that will. On his website is one of his graphs, showing the how the age demographic and the DJIA have followed each other closely since 1920, to the present:
http://www.thegreatbustahead.com/ (http://www.thegreatbustahead.com/)
And yes, I would say the website and the way he markets his book is rather cheezy. I wish I could say the same about the data, though. I've read the book, it took about an hour to read. His data looks solid. I've yet to hear anyone explain why it isn't.
I really hate the doom and gloom stuff, I much prefer to be an optimist. But from everything I've seen regarding financial matters, from many different sources, they all seem to be saying that ... we've got some real bumps on the road ahead, to say the least.
- Chaz
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DrFaraday, I don't doubt the data and probably others don't either because it can be fundamental demographics with a trend that would show some patterns. Kind of like the weather if you get my meaning. It does not take much to change our economic balance either. Wall ST. is a great example. Nothing really has to change but the big players have to monitor what they say. Not to mention hedge players. I believe it to be as delicate as certain flowers yet as robust as a cactus in the desert. But change their habitat and just watch the havoc it can display. If you were to ask me there is always someone or a group(call them what you like) messing with the habitat you might say. It takes years for things to adapt or just dissapear. I'm no expert but you don't need to be one to express your beliefs or disbelief's.
raybe
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I need to read this thread,, been at computer too long talking with g00gle and others :o
YAE! for the Zabaware support forums! I think this forum has probably given me more to think about than any other single forum. Thanks to everybody...,,,, :o MR. Robert do you need Rackspace (cloudspace) donations of any kind?? :o
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This is a political takeover of our country. Nothing less. Plans have been refined for many centuries.
The one that has been happening for the last 200 years or so, is the Soviet's with the use of Islam. Or as they call them..."usefull idiots"
watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbyarMMgd_M
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Amazing Jason...
1) Demoralization
2)Crisis
3)Normalization
4)Destablization
So I'm guessing we are in the Normalization stage or we're about to be in it. We certainly have allot of usefull idiots to spare. I don't think we are in the Destablization stage yet.... Well... at least I don't think so.
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Raybe,
Arnold's premise does allow for variances, meddling with what you describe as the "habitat". For instance, Arnold's graph shows that measures taken by the government to create all those pick axe and shovel jobs in the early part of the depression, did lift the economy up a bit higher than it should have been, according to the demographics. In the latter part of the depression, excise taxes by the government brought DJIA lower than the demographic.
Many people claim that war spending pulled the US out of the depression, but the demographic shows that it would have happened anyway.
In the 1970's the demographic predicted the recession, because the soldiers who died in WWII were not alive in the 70's where they would have been contributing members of the 45-54 age demographic group of spenders. But that recession was also probably also worsened by bad economic policies at the time.
Even now, the demographic indicates that our economy should be doing better than it is. But human factors like the sub-prime mortgage crisis and the stimulus spending, and other government policies are doing their part in unsettling the financial "habitat".
I think that Arnold's main point is that, while human tampering with the habitat can influence the DJIA for better or worse, it remains tethered to the age demographic; it still never moves very far from that demographic.
I'm not sure anyone completely understands how it's all going to play out. With global markets that are interconnected electronically, and all the variables involved, it's hard to say exactly what will happen, even if Arnold's demographic model holds true. But it looks like we won't have to wait very long to find out.
Jasondude,
Interesting video. The video was from the mid '80's, seeing it with the contemporary photos gave it a new freshness. But the video was also edited, and a bit mixed up, I think. I had previously heard of that KGB strategy, but the order was different.
Here is one source:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/from_russia_with_no_love.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/from_russia_with_no_love.html)
They describe the process as:
1. Demoralization.
2. Destabilization.
3. Crisis.
4. Normalization.
I found a better quality video that agrees with that order:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeMZGGQ0ERk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeMZGGQ0ERk)
But that video is also edited, so I looked for a transcript of the interview, and I found this:
http://uselessdissident.blogspot.com/2008/11/interview-with-yuri-bezmenov-part-three.html (http://uselessdissident.blogspot.com/2008/11/interview-with-yuri-bezmenov-part-three.html)
It confirms that the order of the process that Bezmenov describes was Demoralization, Destabilization, Crisis, then Normalization. I would say we are in or approaching the crisis phase. The crushing of dissent comes in the Normalization phase.
Bezmenov makes recommendations about what we should do to avert the final phase. Of course, that was 25 years ago, but the struggle isn't over yet. Wether or America as we know it will prevail, remains to be seen.
The link to the transcript is to part three. It's worth reading parts one and two as well. Bezmenov's story is fascinating, there are photos too. Thanks for posting the video, I would not have found the rest without it.
- Chaz
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I'm not sure if your agreeing with the demographics formula has shown over the years and not comparing it to anything else that has happened to this economy and continues to happen as we speak. The demographic theory to me reflects not that demographics causes recessions or depressions for that very fact you mention. Giving people something to do for no money does not change a thing and all those pick axe and shovel jobs did nothing. They report the unemployment rate has dropped when they decide we are going to hire people and pay temporary salaries to people in the streets for census reports or re- build one large project that we don't have the money for anyway. This is a total shift of wealth. Who do you think pays for those jobs and those people to go back to work for no money and who do you think keeps the money? Our Country does not have the money & you can't spend what you don't have and printing more sure does not work.
"True individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence."
Franklin D. Roosevelt
The money of millions and millions of people has been lost already. You can can't just make it re-appear. I know in my business for every dollar I have someone has to be missing a dollar but the dollar has to get back into the system and into someone's pocket for it to continue to work unless it just stays in their pocket and at that time the dollar is gone. So we decide to print more money and create more debt. The wealth and value is out of the hands of the hard working people that put that money back into play and now where bankrupt. The demographics are just the results of the people that don't put the money back into the system and when there are less of us and more of them(BANKS,other Financial Inst.,brokers,Insurance,Credit cards) that don't put the money back into play the wealth shifts very quietly and quickly. The wealth I'm talking about is not the tens of trillions in just inflated property values that disappeared. That wealth never really existed. The money that was shifted from one large group of people to a much smaller one consisted of hard-earned savings not to be seen again.
It just gets me upset and I know I don't know everything and maybe things will balance out as life constantly evolves. In my heart I really feel something different has shifted. Although we cycle through life with upturns, downturns, demographics and such this just does not feel the same or look the same to me knowing that different things can happen and you can get the same results. Just my opinion.
When you mention the '70's' the demographics are showing a result after the fact of something else occurring which again show more of them and less of us and then you want to add bad economic policies at the time. These policies are still in play only with larger numbers and with a more obvious shift in wealth. That to me is what I call the 'habitat'. Just as life does evolve and not just with graphs or statistics. Again we know when Hurricane or Tornado seasons are here but know one knows the results of those conditions when they are there most likelihood.
As our habitat continues to shrink we adapt or we dwindle in numbers and as long as 'those demographics' continue the results will always be the same..
A good point you mentioned. Let's throw in the the global economics that we are just waking up to and ????????????
Maybe we got it all wrong and the Mayan (don't know if that is spelled correctly) Calender meant the end of something and the new beginning of something else. Just lightening up the mood. Lets either try, hope and or pray for the better of things to come. Besides I think they just missed it by four to five years or so.
Now that I think of it the movie '2012' was built around that concept and I didn't like that movie at all!!
With all the different theories, beliefs agreements and disagreements which is a healthy thing the bottom line is, 'I wish nothing but the best for everyone including their families and we all come out okay'!
raybe
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Thanks for the Fix Chaz.
The four step process makes allot of sense. You know that this information could also be used on individuals or even small groups, not just a Nation. Just food for thought.
It seems that the severity of our debt, both individual and national... as well as global, will ultimately bring everything down. Case in point.... what happens when you are in debt up to your eyebrows? Ultimately, the bank takes everything you have and that's that. What happens if a town goes bankrupt? The bank takes everything it can and cuts it's losses. What happens if a Country goes bankrupt? The bank buys everything up and you become tenants. Then you pay the banks rent in the form of taxes. Also the banks now have the right to evict you at any time. We're just about there already. (Some people have even been sold into slavery.)
Just about every dime payed in taxes goes to pay the national debts interest. (aka Minimum payment) If the US needs more money we just borrow it from the Feds. At some point (its probably already there) there will be no way we will be able to pay this dept off.. EVER! Maybe the banks are using this dept to change world policies so that we will become surfs to just a few privileged and all powerful dictators. Perhaps they are using this money to buy up the world. I’ve heard both theories before. Either way it looks like we’re screwed.
The US national debt is 13,385,887,229,083.34 USD as of August 29, 2010.
The estimated population of the United States is 309,013,647
so each citizen's share of this debt is $43,318.11.
The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$4.11 billion per day since September 28, 2007!
•Average credit card debt per household with credit card debt: $15,788*
•609.8 million credit cards held by U.S. consumers.
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Nice post snowman. I would just like to clarify or add 2 things to my last post. When I mention us and them I am referring to the people or Financial Inst. that control the fine writing that allows them to basically get away with anything and falls on the few people that are left that can pay anything thus again diminishing that number of people. The other comment I would like to add is the comment about the '70s' and mentioned was bad economic policies. I should have added 'The lack of good or any economic policies'.
Thanks,
raybe
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Raybe,
I'm not making a case in favor of pick-axe and shovel jobs! :o If you want to maintain that those jobs artificially made unemployment look less worse than it really was, I have no problem with that. I was just explaining how it had caused the DJIA at that time to appear higher than the age demographic would have put it. Then later, excise taxes put it below where the demographic said. My point was, that economic policies can influence the DJIA a bit higher or lower than the Demographic would predict, but not very far from it.
I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. The graph I'm referring too, I can't post it here, it's at the link I posted earlier, I don't know if you saw it:
http://www.thegreatbustahead.com/ (http://www.thegreatbustahead.com/)
It shows that the DJIA and the age demographics follow each other closely. Not exactly, but closely. And even where they differ, it's not usually by a whole lot. The book had more detailed graphs, and of course heaps more data.
I think the point the book is making, is that regardless of what people do to screw up the habitat, the trend is that the DJIA and the demographic will follow each other closely anyway. If we get completely caught up in the shenanigans regarding the habitat changes, when in fact, the largest force affecting the economy is going to be the demographic, regardless of what we do, then we are missing something pretty important. I'd like to be proven wrong about the demographic thing, because it's not a pretty picture. If anyone can, please do! If the demographic is correct, and for the most part unalterable, then will anything we do to "fix" it be like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? Is the best we can hope for is lifeboats and damage control, until the demographic becomes more favorable in 2023?
Raybe, I can easily agree with most of what you said. You may be preaching to the choir where I'm concerned ;) It's just that, I'm just wondering how fixable this situation is? And regardless of the demographic, I don't mean to say that all the bad economic policy is unimportant. How this crisis is coped with, and who is going to exploit the crisis and use it try to change the power structure and perhaps even our form of government, is of grave importance.
I'm concerned that, combined with the demographic, this financial crisis could lead to a total collapse of our currency, which would be worse than just a depression. I was really impressed with the James Turk interview, http://the-moneychanger.com/goldmoney/dollar_collapse.phtml (http://the-moneychanger.com/goldmoney/dollar_collapse.phtml), the interviewer really gave him a hard time, really challenged him, and he stood his ground well. It's that scenario, our increasingly squiffy currency, combined with the demographic trend, that ... will make 2012 really, uh, interesting?
I saw the 2012 movie, the story was ridiculous New Age rubbish. In the year 2012, the Mayan calendar will simply reboot, and start a new cycle. No big deal. But the special effects of the movie, when California goes under, really captured, I think, the subconscious fear that lurks in the minds of any Californian who's been through a big earthquake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H50jTU4vqA0&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H50jTU4vqA0&feature=channel)
I lived in CA for 24 years. The fear of a massive earthquake like that is like the elephant in the room, that nobody really wants to talk about. But everyone knows it's there, and it exerts an influence. Likewise, I think this financial crisis is the elephant in the room, that is becoming too large to keep ignoring.
Our planet won't physically self-destruct in 2012. But our financial world, that's another story. If we can't stop it, we had better do what we can to soften it's impact, cope with the crisis, preserve what we can and prevent tyrants from exploiting the situation and enslaving us. Our freedom is ours to keep or lose.
Snowman,
Possibly the most depressing part of of the Bezmenov video was his description of "Demoralization": when the truth and facts don't matter anymore. Demoralization has become pervasive, and it makes everything else in four step process possible. It's impossible to win an argument with, or persuade, someone who has no interest in discerning what is true, and what is false. Demoralization is a rotten foundation on which nothing can stand.
The Soviet Union as such doesn't exist anymore, but there are still plenty of Marxists around, worldwide. But whether it's Marxists, or the Banks, Demoralized Politicians or whoever (there is always someone trying to make a power-grab) it's important to remember, that there is no one group or individual in control. There may be all sorts of people or groups striving for complete control, plotting to do things, but none of them are likely to succeed completely. The Law of Unintended Consequences is always at work. Or as the Jewish saying says, "People make plans, and God laughs". All we can do is keep going forward, keep making right effort, as best we can.
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DrFaraday,
you may be right maybe I am preaching to the choir but as far as nothing else being able to effect us more than just demographics makes me ponder if people realize that they don't know when something is being done to them and accept one idea more than the others. That makes this situation so different then all other recessions we have had in the past. As far as the graphs are concerned I take you at your word, no need for me to think you are not sincere in your examples. We just agree about certain aspects that created or contributed to create these situations but I don't feel we disagree that they exist.
You did say you were worried about who is going to exploit the crisis and use it try to change the power structure and perhaps even our form of government, is of grave importance. In your reply to snowman you did also mention that no one group or person can succeed completely but like you I am more concerned about the damages that these groups have already caused and are continuing.
As I posted earlier I believe the money is gone already and you can not replace what we have already lost. People can fool themselves into thinking if they loose $10 and make $20 they are up $10. Lights, smoke and mirrors the fact remains you lost $10 no matter what you make. But sure does make you think and feel better.
The DJIA may follow the demographics over and over again but the demographics still reflect a curve as does the DJIA but certain people or groups have a larger impact in my opinion on the DJIA. People aren't investing because of the demographics or they don't exist they are not investing because they don't have the expendable investment money they had or they are just plain scared from all the fraudulent practices we now are noticing.(The playing field has changed already,it's done! ex.Habitat) I know plenty of people that by my standards have wealth & I understand they do not reflect the nation as a whole but when I hear and see how these people are expressing their thoughts about holding tight then it makes me want to second guess all that is going on. This is not old money I am talking about. Again maybe I'm just one of those people that lost so much of their comfort zone about what has happened I can't see the demographic and the DJIA pattern for this type of failure and I know you are saying the same thing that it is not just one aspect but put that all together and you have a major breakdown. I hope I did not miss read your post and I am on the basic ideas your trying to convey.
In my opinion I agree but the 'Habitat' plays more into the time factor to try and recover and is one of choices made as opposed to trends and then things fix themselves. Sorry for repeating myself. Choices are not trends, choices create trends and our choice to ignore that 'elephant' would be a bad one I agree.
It's not a question of proving you wrong because it is a theory that others subscribe to as well. It is where you choose to put the most emphasis on. I have yet to see anyone prove anyone else wrong about this mess know matter what their belief is. If this is more than demographics and we agree it could be then we can't help but to be affected by a combination of problems which makes them no more important then the other.
What I do find interesting is the time frame for a demographic turn '2023'. How do we even try to estimate based on not knowing what will happen tomorrow. What is the real truth of the real damage to date and I think by your post we agree about the un- surety of things to come.
I don't think God is laughing anymore, I think he is pretty fed up.
I also believe that you cannot blame people anymore for confusing facts and truths. Just look at where it has gotten us and that is also a part of this mess. As you said how can anyone possibly change the minds or convince people of truth, lies and facts when we have been stripped of the very essence that makes our American Dream seem like another ride in deception with new rules that we don't know.
The bullet is out of the chamber and the damage lies in the target it hits and where.
Had more comments of coarse but I'm done for now. By the way I also have family located in the Oakland area of CA. I wonder how they feel about the 'elephant'? Maybe I should ask.
raybe
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DrFaraday,
Couldn't sleep very well. But it's amazing if you stand from afar and put all these thoughts together it would have made it a perfect time for this transfer of wealth to take place.
You have the demographics, you have the housing bubble with the demographics of people that have false wealth. The only reason I phrase it as false wealth is because when middle class did have the extra money of coarse we were more than willing to make more, spend it or invest it since it looked like it was our time to flourish. But not true. If someone wants to call it greed I guess you can but I like to think of it as people really being put in a situation that they can now have what others have enjoyed because they worked so hard to get there. What a great setup!
I don't subscribe to a single meaning of greed is trying to have material things that were once a dream and because of their 'no giving up' attitude they achieve those goals. I also don't think it is not being materialistic for people that deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor. The other side of the coin is if you took all the risk and all the financial burdens then you deserve to have these things. For anyone that has owned their own company and has carried all these burdens and taking it home with you everyday including employing others with a way to make a living and feed their families they deserve some rewards.( From my experience and I have owned my own companies since I was 17 years old and I am now 54 years old you take that responsibility seriously. Can't speak for everyone). So many other entrepreneurs I know pay their staff before paying themselves hoping that they will once again be in a position to rebound and not miss a beat.
Everything is ripe for the picking. The Bank bail outs, credit card companies becoming legal loan sharks, the scams in the market that even the veterans of building wealth were taken in, Airlines and Insurance Companies that invest and wanted to be bailed out. Like putting out a fishing net and if you happen to catch other big game fish in the process all the better.
The right president for the demographics and the dreams for people to be finally generating money and then just like that with Wars, all the fine print, no regulations and scams the money is taken away and and put back in the hands of the people of Financial Inst. that control the money in the first place or special interest groups that get these politicians elected to begin with.
Let's not forget what will happen with tax situations as time goes marching on. Now that is going to be interesting to watch how they get some more money back from us. Somebody is going to continue to pay and it is not going to be the Feds or Govt. It will be us now and our future generations if they can survive.
The transfer of wealth is alive and well.
raybe
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Raybe,
You said, "Choices are not trends, choices create trends..." Yes. But even the age demographic trend itself is the result of choices people made to have or not have children, 45 to 54 years ago. So in that sense, those choices did create the age demographic trend, even if unintentionally.
You also said "What I do find interesting is the time frame for a demographic turn '2023'. How do we even try to estimate based on not knowing what will happen tomorrow."
The 2023 estimate is based on what we know about people who are already alive today. Assuming most of them survive til 2023, when they will make up the 45 - 54 age group, they will be the big earners and spenders in our consumer-driven economy.
What could change that? They could die in a war, or famine, or epidemic. Or if by then we have a centralized, communist government running a "planned" economy, then the demographic won't even be applicable.
The other choices we have to make are of course important too. Bad choices can make a bad situation even worse. But the choices we are going to have to make may still be bound around a demographic trend over which we have no control. If the economy is tethered to that demographic, then the choices we have to make about the economy will also be tethered to it. The age demographic IS part of the choices we have collectively already made. How we cope with it from here on is of course, a topic for endless discussion.
I don't claim to have all the answers. I basically just mentioned the book about the age demographic, for folks here to consider, because I think it's an important point. Because if it's true, then we aren't going to see a "recovery" any time soon. Even if we see improvement in the economy, I don't think it will ever go back to the way it was.
I think we had a large "fake" middle class; working class people living on credit, beyond their means, pretending to be wealthier than they were.
When I bought my first home in 1994, we were offered WAY more credit than we could afford to pay back. We calculated what we believed that we could afford, and bought accordingly: a small fixer-upper. But we saw many others buying houses well beyond their means. Now we are all paying the price for it, literally. I think it's just one part of the Cloward-Piven strategy, to overload existing systems, in order to destroy them, so they can be replaced with ... something else.
I also own a business, so I feel your pain. We can't expand or hire, and like many other businesses now, we are cutting back, in anticipation of higher taxes next year.
I won't keep hammering away on the demographic idea, I just threw it out there for consideration. I don't want to ruin your sleep, or mine ;)
In any case, we shall see soon enough, what will happen. In the meantime, the only thing that I know to do right now is, fight the good fight, as best we can. What else can we do?
Well it's Monday, I'd better get back to work! :o
- Chaz
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I read the "collapse of the Dollar" article. I've heard some of this information from other sources as well. Turk did an excellent job of explaining himself. One of Turk’s statements makes a claim that "Looking at real wealth and adjusting for the dollar’s debasement, people are less wealthy today than they were 20-30 years ago.”
This is amazing to me. So basically, there is an illusion of wealth. What cost $100 in 1980 would cost $257.00 in 2009 according to the http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi website. So I only appear to be doing much better but in reality I'm not. But because I feel wealthier I'm more irresponsible with my money.
DrFaraday, you said,
"I think we had a large "fake" middle class; working class people living on credit, beyond their means, pretending to be wealthier than they were."
This only adds to the problem. I think I'm wealthier than I really am so I believe I can make the payments to larger loans. I can buy larger houses because I see that I’m making more than twice the income I did 30 years ago.
In this scenario it appears that because of inflation it has corrupted the minds of the average person which ultimately lead them into great debt. The inflation was in turn created by banks pumping too much money into the economy. The government reminds me of the average citizen who thought they would pay the debt off in time, so I think the government is also in the same delusional state as the average citizen (only far worse).
The main banks are driven by pure greed and not by responsibility to the average person or to any government.
Many have talked about abolishing the Feds and allowing the government to issue its own money all based upon governmental needs. This is well covered in the film “The Secret of Oz”. They hope that the responsibility to the people will take precedence rather than greed once watched over by our government. Only in America this might be possible. It seems to work for The Bank of North Dakota.
Is it possible to change our financial system to a government control / part gold standard. Is it too late the change the illusion of personal wealth in the minds of the individual. Well, as was pointed out in an earlier post, it takes around 15 years to demoralize a country. I wonder if it would take that long to reverse it all now that the cats out of the bag.
I certainly don’t discount demographics. WHEN the young careless (spoilt) generation becomes today’s leaders, rest assure, we are not having a recovery... I’m 30... I can speak from personal experience when I say that the Nation is doomed when the video game “era” gets into power. Well, I could be wrong about that but it’s certainly food for thought.
I want this discussion to continue for several reasons. 1# I personally want to learn more about the problem. 2# I want to allow others to express there feelings about the problem constructively. It is emotional and something needs to be said. 3# There are people that haven’t been commenting here but are certainly reading what is being wrote. It is important to educate others of this problem, because the main stream media will not. I’ve really enjoyed everything that has been posted about so far, depressing as it might be.
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I appreciate your views about how you can believe having children is a choice and therefor related to demographics but you really don't get it as in my example. Do you really think all people choose to have children do you also discount your own statements about war and the million other unknown factors that control demographics. Who do you think these people are that come up with such statistics? Just a word; 'Paper or computer screens hold anything you wright on them' Fact. When people can use children to gain more support and receive benefits that are almost depleted including food banks because of many reasons be it a social one or that they need help to get by. Like I said there are those that manipulate the system but I dare you today to distinguish between the two. Tell me what we know about people today. Tell me you know your neighbor then I will take you on about challenging this demographic trend of choices as you would have it put.
You also said, The 2023 estimate is based on what we know about people who are already alive today. Assuming most of them survive til 2023, when they will make up the 45 - 54 age group, they will be the big earners and spenders in our consumer-driven economy.
I already agreed that everything plays it's part and you agreed 2x :
1) What could change that? They could die in a war, or famine, or epidemic. Or if by then we have a centralized, communist government running a "planned" economy, then the demographic won't even be applicable.
2) Raybe, I can easily agree with most of what you said. You may be preaching to the choir where I'm concerned ;) It's just that, I'm just wondering how fixable this situation is? And regardless of the demographic, I don't mean to say that all the bad economic policy is unimportant.
Then you want to use words like 'ASSUMING'. ' Let's not disagree to agree'. I felt turning the phrase around would be more fitting.
Let's agree not to re- post what we both can read and know we said!! It is not constructive to anyone on this forum including ourselves.
We all agree we have big problems now and hope they won't turn us inside out in the near future. I also agree with 'snowman' and the fact that this doesn't look like a quick fix which I also think you believe since '2023' is a bit of time away or lets say enough time away to be a disaster.
Where are these kids in '2023' getting the money from, more magic. There can be more people and less to spend or as 'snowman' has mentioned false wealth as I also tried to mentioned in my previous post, 'The Change of Wealth'! I am not afraid to say I'm bios about this problem. I refuse to agree or conform with any one person's theories or group because they are all just that until something does change and then we can watch everyone argue again about how they were even more correct about what had taken place.(Sorry for bad grammar). Especially on the subject of money.
Your a business person as I am you know better then that. You make your own decisions based upon as much information as you can get but you are still responsible for the choices you make and I know for a fact your not always ahead of the curve. We all learn our own paths whether we model other successful people or like a child put our hands on the stove to realize it can be hot. That is what entrepreneurs do. This also includes anyone that takes a risk to become a musician, actor or race car driver. Let's take this to the limits, Anyone that gets up every morning or evening to make a living and support themselves and others.
There are things that drive us and we can control. Then you need to add the things we don't control. I know I don't know the right answer for every one. I may not be correct in my assumptions as well but it is only my opinion that something is being done to me and not for my benefit and I pray it doesn't happen to anyone else! Not you, 'snowman' or anybody I know or don't know. I will keep repeating myself that no one deserves this or should I speak for myself and my co-workers only because I do effect them and say what I see happening to me and my co-workers is just a crime.
'Snowman' I respect the fact you want to keep this thread open for any of the reason's you believe to be the right one's. DrFaraday, I also respect your opinion and unfortunately it is an emotional topic as well as life today. I apologize for stepping on toes but I do not apologize for my beliefs.
Raybe
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I just couldn't let it go. I wish people would stop with this fake middle class garbage. Middle class was already setup to fail. You want to add demographics to that little scenario. I challenge you to distinguish today between the people that had some wealth, those that thought they were going to achieve wealth and those who just wanted to look wealthy. Even during these rough times some people won't admit that they have no money. People were lead, shoved and pushed down that road. Or lets say certain groups made it easier for people to be lead astray. Sure you can call them naive, slow, dumb, greedy, whatever you feel is appropriate. This generation like other generations wanted more than the generation before them yeah I know that also comes from greed and now that generation needs to support this one. Some laws were written to control and keep things civilized and hopefully progress others were written just to control. When will people start to feel comfortable with the fact; it's okay to want nice things ,its okay to have a big house and a nice car, its okay for you to be comfortable with having or not having and you made that choice so don't get mad at others that have different priorities in life. I know plenty of people that skiped lunch plenty of times so they might be able to purchase a new computer and if that's what makes them happy then good for them. I am not going to be the one to tell them they are being selfish and need to get their priorities straightened out. It may not be right for everyone but some people can decide for themselves especially if it helps them either feel good, they achieved a goal by sacrifice or whatever. I know I won't be mad at him or her. (sorry ladies if I did not use the term enough). Yes, I also know that not everyone knows what is best and that we do carry responsibility for each other or we should try but that is all apart of who we are as individuals not some (oops was going to re-post something DrFaraday said but I stopped).
Okay I'm done and I won't lose sleep over it because there are other things besides posting that keep me up at night.
raybe
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DrFaraday,
I finally read the downloadable article showing Daniel's theory. All I can say is Thats Amazing!
http://www.thegreatbustahead.com/pi_article_feb2004.pdf
It makes allot of sense too. My dad retired recently and I know others who have also. So Daniel is saying that because all these baby boomers are slowing down there spending, due either to retirement or just age, and that because there are so many of them, the Nation can't help but reflect the sudden impact. In other words, all the big spenders are no longer spending. Danial even predicted when the crash would start, that the housing market would crash, and ultimately how long it will last. Thats cool (in an intellectual way).
He's also showing just how bad its going to get. Makes me want to read the book.
I wonder if we outlaw retirement we can delay some of its effects :-X ;).
Thanks,
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Snowman,
Thanks for posting the link to that article, I wish I had thought to do that. When I mentioned to book here, I don't think I described it's premise sufficiently. The article does a better job of it, and the book goes into a lot more detail, with lots more charts and graphs, and footnotes about where the data comes from, how it was collated, all the different factors that were considered and factored into the graphs, etc. He was pretty thorough.
The comments about the book on the Amazon website were interesting, too. People who criticized the book seemed to focus mostly on the conclusions he drew as to what to do to prepare for the bust (advice that I also did not agree with). But even his critics seem to agree that the data is good, that it makes sense. His data has also been cited in other books.
The author also looks at Japan as a special case. Their spending patterns are different, because of when and how they receive pay raises (typically at two points in their working life, points at which they then begin spending more). So the age demographic works differently for them, and they have already had their severe recession. Because the rest of the world was doing better at the time, they were still able to sell their goods overseas and that got them through it. But if the rest of the westernized, industrialized nations all go through it at the same time, it could be pretty tough going.
It's not a long read, I was able to read the whole book in about an hour. So if it really interests you, I would say it's worth it.
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Well, I went ahead and ordered the book. Very cheap. I need to also start searching the most recent information on baby boomers, like ages and retirement projections. I want to look at alternative and verifiable data sources, like 2010 US census. Will keep you up-to-date.
Another thing that everybody knows but is worth mentioning, Even if people want work, where will they get it? Someone told me earlier today, a baby boomer, that most of our manufacturing jobs are now overseas, aka China.
It also been said that China wants to get rid of their US Dollars because of its current volatility. Thus dumping it back into our economy and helping to fuel US hyper-inflation. China had an infrastructure including a manufacturing base that has been created in part by the US economy. They’re much more self-sufficient and have their own wealth now. Again partly because of the US. So they can afford to get rid of the US dollar. I’m not really trying to point fingers either.
We, on the other hand, have lost our manufacturing base because we decided to out-source our jobs to lower wage workers in foreign countries. So when the foreign economies have finally built up some wealth, they get away from the US.
We lose jobs, we gain hyper-inflation, we loose our infrastructure. And then approximately 100 million baby boomers (1/3 of the population) decide to all retire at the same time. Oh well.
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Snowman,
Regarding China dumping dollars, you might find this article interesting:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-05-03/china-s-economy-to-slow-may-crash-in-next-nine-months-marc-faber-says.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-05-03/china-s-economy-to-slow-may-crash-in-next-nine-months-marc-faber-says.html)
It seems China has a real estate/construction bubble that may burst. Our economy is now so closely tied to theirs, that what affects them affects us, and vise-versa. The way I see it, neither country can afford to be completely indifferent to the other. But how that will play out if economic hardships increase, is anyone's guess.
Hyperinflation is a real concern. Some say we are on already on the verge of triggering inflation:
http://blog.heritage.org/2010/06/10/angry-voters-are-right-growing-debt-can-slow-the-economy/#more-35747 (http://blog.heritage.org/2010/06/10/angry-voters-are-right-growing-debt-can-slow-the-economy/#more-35747)
An excerpt:
[...] For the period 1946 through 2009, developed countries (which includes the United States) grew at an annual rate of just shy of 4 percent when debt was no greater than 30 percent of GDP. For debt burdens above 30 but below 90 percent, economic growth slowed down but remained, on average, around 3 to 3.5 percent per year. However, a debt burden of over 90 percent of GDP was associated with a significantly slower economy: the average growth rate is negative and the median rate is just at 2 percent.
When Reinhart and Rogoff focused just on the U.S., the association of high debt burden and economic slowdown becomes even more pronounced. They use data from 1790 through 2009. When debt rises to 90 percent of GDP, both the average and the median economic growth rates are negative and the inflation rate skyrockets to above 5.5 percent.
What makes this research so telling is the commonly accepted prediction that U.S. sovereign debt is on its way to 100 percent of GDP and doing so quickly. The International Monetary Fund predicted that total U.S. government debt would reach that level in 2015, just four years from now. The Congressional Budget Office forecasts that debt will be above 90 percent by 2020. If one adds in the debt U.S. government agencies owe one another, the U.S. debt could be above 100 percent next year. [...]
Hyper-Inflation would of course be much worse. So far, China has not wanted to do anything to damage our economy, because they rely on us to buy their consumer goods. But if American's stop buying their stuff anyway, China will have less incentive to keep buying and holding our debt. If their own problems keep increasing, I don't know what they are likely to do.
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One subject I would like also to see mentioned in all of this is the 2nd version of transfer of wealth. The generation that Boomers would be getting or have inherited was in some cases higher and in some lower and even the ones that retire are taking part time jobs. Since 2001, the stock market meltdown has erased some $8 trillion in shareholder wealth, cutting the net worth of Boomers' parents. The attitudes in spending or holding more money because of the un-surity if they or we will have enough money to get through the rough times, living longer. Most articles I have seen still reflect lower incomes versus what other generations may have been compensated for, their way of living and Conservative values in making or spending money thus the inheritance of past wealth.
The more I try to look at this economic rubik's cube the more factors come into play that point in the wrong direction and it seems less as time goes on. Regardless of demographics, stimulus, global economics, Insurance Co., Banks, attorney's and being able to transfer wealth that just not seem to be there for all these reasons.
They have it we don't and how do we get some back. The term 'Boomers' is even split. Today's seniors enjoy full Social Security and Medicare benefits and receive the most generous pensions in the nation's history and I still know plenty are working somewhat or trying to hold their wealth because they also face enormous expenses as well.
Some 40 percent of Americans over age 65 may spend time in a nursing home, and 75 percent will likely need some type of home care, reports the Health Insurance Association of America. The average cost of care in a nursing home: more than $52,000 annually.
In 1999, everyone was getting rich and ready to hand down fortunes but most don't have that money anymore.
raybe
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So if I was to sum up and make a fair assessment, here is what we are ultimately saying.
#1 Boomers are beginning to reach the end of their financial contributions and are now nearing the start of a grand healthcare, social security, and retirement drain of epic proportions.
#2 Our debt, both in government and on an individual bases, are bringing this country to total bankruptcy.
#3 China and other countries are preparing to flee the US dollar, thus adding to the fears of hyper-inflation.
#4 Banker's intense creed as well as irresponsibility has undermined our country's safety net, squandering billions into select individual hands wealth.
#5 Elitists are plotting and deliberately making things worse. People of influence who are possibly contributing to catastrophic frailer by means of Demoralization, De-stabilization, Crisis, and Normalization.
The combination of thieves, bad decisions, demographics, and fears are all coming together for the perfect storm. I guess its time to either baton down the hatches or flee the country. I have a friend who said that He was moving to Australia. I’m not so sure about that, maybe Greenland.
I don’t want to scare anybody, but it seems prudent to prepare for the worse while, of course, praying for the best.
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What is going to be really something are the people that will feel a slight adjustment in their lives sort of title wave in the middle of the ocean. They can feel like no more than a little breaker until the sea floor begins to rise or get shallower and you really see what your dealing with and guess who is going to be on shoreline? I think the perfect storm fits in this case. There are great conditions for the worst things to happen but like the weather everybody looks towards trends, past history, theories, gut feelings, computer models even if similar economic results weren't a very long time ago considering our entire history.
I have no doubt in my own mind and my own opinion that there will be a definite split between winners and losers as selected people or Financial Inst. will be far from shore when that title wave does or can hit the lower lined area's rising to great heights and taking many people with it. Not to say none of them are immune. A record number of Banks will close this year.
People will survive because some people are just better at it then others(or lucky, your choice). I would never doubt the 'will', 'courage' and the minds power of some. I'm not sure if we learn this, inherit it or just born with it (or just lucky, your choice again).
This is what does bother me. People can use this same opportunity like selling more books and selling their ideas as fact which I have found lately if you keep looking how many more 'experts' there are now that knew this was going to happen. Boy I remember in '2005-2006' lots of people shocked and jolted. Even the evening news wasn't quit sure of how to exploit this yet. The more I really search the easier they are becoming to find and if only people would have read their material there was nothing anybody could of done but they would have known I knew. Reminds me of every exercise machine and diet book prediction of obesity in the U.S. because there will always be a McDonalds or whom ever.
Again they are not all totally wrong it just gets harder to distinguish the ones that are really trying to help and again the others that having such information and stay laying under the radar then like magic here they are to explain it all. Things that happen are truly justified as they happen or after the fact.
As the opposite of China that allow one child to be born because of the size of their country and what it takes to keep an engine running unlike gym memberships, 'limited space with unlimited memberships' should we also dictate how many children to have and when or is this just the way life is for us or any country that has similar systems in place? I still see more of a similarity between events, peoples beliefs at that time and what was the conception of priority for each and every generation. Wealth has not only shifted but it never really gets adjusted because of all the variables such as events and beliefs which are also made by people and large powerful groups of people while we watch. Well I believe in everything else but today I still see wealth shifting and not adjusting because the resources just aren't there (ex.Money). Although they would like to show us differently. No I don't know what the reference to 'they' truly means. As Warren Buffet says; you have to trust yourself and your own knowledge sometimes and not follow the mainstream but you also have to be open minded enough to change your strategies as well. Not a direct quote but something I caught that I believe was a documentary about him. Here is a man that made money during every economic climate. It's a shame that you can count these people maybe one hand but I am sure there are others I just don't know all their names that honestly found their own way. The majority felt every little bump and wave that past them. Some survived and some didn't.
Some people will exploit it and some will try to find future problem solving. The not so greatest minds in the world still question the greatest minds past and present and theories the world has ever known and I thank God for those people that just keep asking and questioning. Some motivators would use this scenario in their own teaching; Push yourself to ask better questions and your mind will push to get better answers'. when it is just human nature for some to constantly push the envelope and never just accepting how many times a particular theory has been proven.
Maybe like everything we put our minds to in life there lies the answer and yes the answer can be the answer we don't want to hear. For now anyway.
raybe
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That was a well written post Raybe. And it also brought up another very important topic that we will be facing in the future if God tarries. That has to do with population. We know that the world population, if left uncheck, will eventually peak out. I always figured that God would return before this, because that would mean very bad things would happen. The world would essentially turn into a city, huge food problems, extreme immorality on a very massive scale. And the rest would be left to the imagination, although I'm too squeamish to imagine it.
Population up until the 1920s had grown to about 2 billion people. Now its around 6.8 Billion and its growing exponentially. So it will be a big problem relatively soon. There is talk of mass scale murder using virus's to limit the worlds population. Some have even suggested that Aids is an attempt at this very thing. Wether or not this is true I personally think it is immoral on so many different levels. It was Steven Hawkins who said that mankind needs to start looking towards the stars if it ever expects to survive.
I've heard of plans that entails destroying about 80% of our world's current population for the betterment of the Human species. Again I think this is not the way to go. Although I don’t believe they are asking my opinion. I know that there are many ways to implement this sort of destruction that doesn’t rely on viruses. I hope the Lord returns before this kind of thing happens but I think its probably already happening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-Population-1800-2100.png
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4e/World_population.svg/1000px-World_population.svg.png)
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success sounds nice,
as to attempt a direction,
i'm told consider calling a problem an opertunity.
i keep saying success sounds nice,
there is a potential of knollage,
to encourage as nice,
bye for now and be well :) :]
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hey snowman , remember when i talked about suppresion of idea's and products . here is an interesting article , it's a little long but interesting .
This is from the Telegraph
Dr Rubbia says a tonne of the silvery metal – named after the Norse god of thunder, who also gave us Thor’s day or Thursday - produces as much energy as 200 tonnes of uranium, or 3,500,000 tonnes of coal. A mere fistful would light London for a week.
Thorium eats its own hazardous waste. It can even scavenge the plutonium left by uranium reactors, acting as an eco-cleaner. "It’s the Big One," said Kirk Sorensen, a former NASA rocket engineer and now chief nuclear technologist at Teledyne Brown Engineering.
"Once you start looking more closely, it blows your mind away. You can run civilisation on thorium for hundreds of thousands of years, and it’s essentially free. You don’t have to deal with uranium cartels," he said. Thorium is so common that miners treat it as a nuisance, a radioactive by-product if they try to dig up rare earth metals. The US and Australia are full of the stuff. So are the granite rocks of Cornwall. You do not need much: all is potentially usable as fuel, compared to just 0.7pc for uranium.
I must say this does sound like an exciting fuel. I like the fact that it eats its own hazardous waste and can even eat that of Uranium and Plutonium. Could be used in Chernobyl?
More from the Telegraph
You might have thought that thorium reactors were the answer to every dream but when CERN went to the European Commission for development funds in 1999-2000, they were rebuffed.
Brussels turned to its technical experts, who happened to be French because the French dominate the EU’s nuclear industry. "They didn’t want competition because they had made a huge investment in the old technology," he said.
There is the same old problem with the energy cartels who try to prevent the spread of alternative energies to the 'dirty fuels'.
It would seem the bigest growth will be in the emerging economies and mabye in the U.S.. But would the Obama administration have the stomach to take on the nuclear looby in the U.S. and argue for the replacement of Uranium with Thorium?
So Aker is looking for tie-ups with the US, Russia, or China. The Indians have their own projects - none yet built - dating from days when they switched to thorium because their weapons programme prompted a uranium ban.
Billions have been provided in loan gurantees to encourage the expansion on the use of Nuclear powere in the U.S. why not funnel some of that to building Thorium based sites?
www.telegraph.co.uk...
Surely if the U.S. could show the benefits of Thorium powered reactors they could export the technology to places like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel and anyone else developing a Nuclear programme to replace any Uranium powered sites?
This would take the risk of nuclear weapons being built out of the equation, as it is nigh on impossible to use Thorium in a weapon because of its high output of Gamma rays.
Any thoughts?
Links to Thorium related sites.
energyfromthorium.com...
periodic.lanl.gov...
www.world-nuclear.org...
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DrFaraday, The thing that worries me in regards to your post on Aug.31st about China is yes we effect each other but we are the Country that owes them the money and if something terrible with their economy should also hit nearly at the same time. I think we get the short end of it but I wouldn't know how that works. When Banks are uncomfortable about a situation of coarse they have the right to call in the debt for security reasons or risks.
Always after the fact and I don't say that the Donald(Trump) has all the answers or policies I may agree with but he is a shrewd business man. He mentions that we could have raised the taxes to China imports enough to help with our deficit with them. Just another thought from another very wealthy businessman.
raybe
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Thanks snowman, and that chart you posted again just adds to this mix. I sure hope there is some long term plan The plans you mentioned were pretty extreme but it will need to be dealt with. Certainly N.A.S.A. has really stepped up the program after the the space shuttle slow down. Just going to be replaced with more aggressive exploration and possible options. Which again takes us back to our money problem and the Government looking toward more support from the public sector or at least the very wealthy sector. You can use that collaboration with 'Virgin' to prove that the private sector has some resources left to accomplish some interesting goals as paid trips into space. Not sure if that's the best use of money for today but what should our priorities be and this generation will make those decisions good or bad but a decision which I am sure again will play a part of how things turn out or not.
raybe
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Yeah Lighspeed, allot of ideas are suppressed. Sometimes information is suppressed because only worthy smarties are supposed to have great ideas. If an unknown or "inferior" person has an idea its always scoffed at by well known and jealous.
Even today I was working some on making a Hydrogen generator to run a vehicle. Most people try to use hydrogen to make a car run totally on water, which I'm positive it is impossible. Some try to give their vehicle better gas milage by using Hydrogen as an addition boost. But a simpler idea would be to create a Hydro-electric hybrid car. This car would have batteries like an electric car but instead of using the batteries to run an electric motor you would use it to create hydrogen. Then this hydrogen would run the combustion engine. It should have plenty of power and be very efficient.
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I found a youtube movie that show mankind trying to leave this planet. They talk of environmental perils and of overpopulation at the last. By the time the movie is over I began to think that there is no way we were going to make it to another world. I have thought of several reasons why, but I don't want to get too long winded. But I will say one thing, it would take too long to search and find another home. We're apparently running borrowed time at the momment.
But as Will is famous for saying, Success is the key, Success sounds nice.
Maybe somebody will invent a way of opening up worm holes :)
Voyage to Pandora: The First Interstellar Flight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPjXxKpM4DM&list=SL
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snowman and lightspeed,
Just a mention about the Hydrogen car concept. It had to be about 30years ago at a race track in N.J. they ran a car on Hydrogen Peroxide, I believe it was nearly 100% and it was the first car to run 4 seconds in a quarter mile from a dead stop. The chemical reaction if I remember correct was the Hydrogen Peroxide and silver. It burned pure water out of the engine so essentially there were know moving parts other then a few pumps and injectors and that was 30 years ago and I never heard about it again. Just in case you want to look it up some how the name of the car was 'Vanishing Point'.
Raybe
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This is just a guess, but isn't that what they use to fly personal rocket jets?
Vanishing Point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlVVH8ecm5c
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snowman, I am going to check out your link and hope it is what I think it is. But if your talking about personal rockets such as the 'Testors' Rockets that came in a kit and you loaded them with different size rocket engines those are mostly solid fuel Rockets. Even most serious hobbyist rockets are made from solid fuel chemicals and letters are used to rate the strength. If I remember correctly. I really don't recall the use of Hydrogen Peroxide but you may be right. I never really followed up on the concept. Wish I did but it was always in the back of my mind. I guess the technology has come so far in that time that cars do that time and faster on a pretty regular basis today with normally aspirated engines. Although they are far from normal producing thousands of horse power for a short period of time.
Thanks
raybe
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snowman, can't thank you enough. That brought back some great memories and I,m glad I was able to share that experience. Pretty amazing back in the day. I would be at the race track almost every weekend then I grew into Formula One which became to expensive for me to travel and visit. I will watch Indy which is no wear near the expense. When I have time I am going to check the other links and info about the concept. Strange, I never even thought about 'you tube'. I think I have this strange perception of 'You Tube'.
raybe
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Rocket Man Flys Over Canyon
This rocket used Hydrogen Peroxide. It was difficult to explain what I meant to say. You can just about find anything on youtube, but you have to do allot searching sometimes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzP4A3P4Ov4
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I have a 'Theroy' in 'Rhetoric and Reader' -Money,Schools and just exactly who owes who what, in this country. (not good for others) Double Jepoardy money doesn't work. >:(
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One, great post and theory but try to get anyone of these institutes to admit to it. They all need money, they all want money, they all have budget cuts and not enough money and they prioritize themselves (can't blame them for that) including our lovely government.
raybe