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Author Topic: A.I. installed in cars. Version 1.0  (Read 13643 times)

FarmerChad

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A.I. installed in cars. Version 1.0
« on: March 24, 2009, 09:10:43 pm »
So heres the start to replace the previous discussion on putting A.I. in the auto. I think this is going to be a great discussion. Anyone that has ideas please share.

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FarmerChad

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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 09:39:40 pm »
My main purpose is to have a virtually infinite music database. Thats how this got started. I then decided that an "AIRCARD" for internet would be pretty cool. Im still looking for the ideal monitor/s. My first thought was a touch screen, but the cost is hard to justify. So I was looking thru some ebay auctions and ran across a trackpad. The kind you plug in to your ps/2 port. I thought it could be mounted between the seat, below the gearshift.. something like that. Dual monitors would be even better, one to display your hal character, the other for applications and what not. I then thought about using relays or servos for mechanical functions. I thought about the trunk release and had a great idea. I was putting some boxes of girl scout cookies (thats another story) in my trunk and started to mess round with the child/safety release in the trunk. A servo would have more then enough power to pull the latch, mine anyways. I think, in this case, a servo would be perfect. Just re-inforce the servo horn, attach to the safety release handle, and voila... pop goes the trunk. So heres that hardware that I currently have laying around. Im cheap, no since in buying anything when I can re-purpose something else.

2 computers in cases, fully functioning.
Kit 74 relay board
Parallax usb servo controller
couple of small portable dvd players, one for sure with video input. Thought I could plug directly into my ati video out.

So lets do some brainstorming
 

WolfyJ

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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 10:32:14 pm »
Well contrary to Jasons belief a rav4 has a lot of trunk space. So far I came up with the trunk has a cover in wich i can put a tower underneath it. I need to figure a way to make sure it doesnt over heat though. One of my friends is gona change the outlet so it works for computers instead of cigaret lighters. Asides from that fact is I havent completly thought in stone of what I want to do. I do want an AI to be able to talk back and forth so I figure somewhere in the front I would place a mic there. I have a friend though who said I should get a micrhophone that can attach to the back of the headrest (kind of like cell phones).  I was also wondering how to do the speakers. Wheather I should just put like computer speakers around the car >_> or actually attatch it to the car speakers.

   Something else that came to mind was wheather or not ya would need to put another battery in or how to moniter the power source properly so like ya dont drain the car. Some ciggarete lighters stay on when the car isnt keyed up but some stay off. Any recommendations on what to do?

   Another thing is is I saw a picture of someone isntalling like a 4 usb port into the car console to access it upfront. Another person I saw had a freakin video card and like cd player or something in the glover box... it was awsome. I was wondering if like put a cd/dvd player in the glove box for easy access. Or take a changing cd like 6 cd changer or something and use that. Also for now I'd only use one computer and if I needed more space just get an external HD.

   As for moniters I dont know what I'd wana do. Origionally I was thinking a roof mounted touchscreen but I dont think id fit. It doesnt even have to be touchscreen (just need a way to controll it.)

Ps. What kinda car do ya have? And thanks for making this post... wasnt sure if I made it if he'd try to get it deleted or something ^_^
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 10:33:02 pm by WolfyJ »
 

onthecuttingedge2005

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A.I. installed in cars. Version 1.0
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 11:51:46 pm »
I think first off we would actually need to sit in the car, get comfortable and relax, look around and see what feels the best for all your accessories.

would it be better to have a heads up display on account of driving while using the system, just like the system used to fly jets, eye and voice command so that your hands are free to drive.

looking away from the road is a hazard so just like cell phones it is worth the cost to purchase a blue-tooth or equivalent.

you can also run motherboards without cases, I do this all the time with my systems but I always make sure there is adequate ventilation, without cases there is less bulk.

think about all the harnesses, where exactly would be the friendliest line of site to fish them through from the trunk to the dashboard.

to save money, make your own harnesses by buying the ribbon or data cables if you purchase various cable and ribbon tools, I don't think lengthy extended cables and ribbons are to common so we would have to see what resources are available local and on the net.

the use of dremel tools with Zip bits will help to cut and fashion elegant holes for buttons and switches and accessories.

one could buy metal erector sets kits to make framework for parts and such.

Jerry[8D]

FarmerChad

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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 06:01:49 pm »
First and foremost problem: power.. heres my proposal, a black & decker electromate 400. In case you haven't seen one (available at walmart), you charge it up and have 110 volts to go. Its designed to power small tv's and appliances. Put that baby in the trunk with the cpu, plug the electromate into a 12 volt converter and it recharges while plugged into the 12 volt supply. The best part is that if you shut off the ignition, like stopping to put fuel in the car, the cpu stays powered up! No shutting Hal down unless your parking for a good while.

The erector set is a good idea, or even stock aluminum from the hardware store machines pretty easily.

Blue Tooth? Hmm... good thinking. I suppose you would attach the blue tooth receiver to the usb slot and sync it to the headset? Will it allow audio transfer? That would be awesome! Blue Tooth works upto 20 feet isnt it? I can see me coming out of the grocery store, arms full and giving the command to open the trunk! HaHa..

Heres my ride, 2008 Toyota Yaris Sport (don't laugh.. its paid for!)



As you can see, not much room for dash monitors.. although modification to the radio display may be possible



Perfect spot for the power button and reset or harddrive led?

 

Bill819

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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 06:30:21 pm »
I don't know why you just don't consider using a laptop in the first place. There is also a 12 to 120 converter that plugs into a cigarett lighter receptable. In this way space is not a problem and they work just as good as PC towers.
Bill
 

FarmerChad

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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 06:53:14 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by Bill819

I don't know why you just don't consider using a laptop in the first place. There is also a 12 to 120 converter that plugs into a cigarett lighter receptable. In this way space is not a problem and they work just as good as PC towers.
Bill




Because.. I don't wanna [:)] Thats not a bad idea.. I just like to re-purpose what I already have. Besides, the wife might notice the laptop is missing [8D]
 

WolfyJ

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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 12:24:55 am »
Im going to be getting pictures up soon, of what I want to do with this. Postioniong etc. Luckily I have an outlet in the trunk area.
Ive wondered about using a laptop vs PC tower etc and I was wondering if anyone could think of the pros and cons of everything.
I figure laptops are obviously compact but pc's youd be able to change parts. asides from that im kinda at a loss cause ive seen min car pcs that are almost as small as laptops but can hardly do as much as one. Not to sound like a stupid n00b but between the two for some reason im leaning towards a tower. Why I dont really know; but I figure I'd just be better... with no justifiable means though. Any input would be more than greatly appruciated. After ironically this simple and basic question I know almost exactly what I want to do.
 

onthecuttingedge2005

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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 12:42:32 am »
It might be better to have the hard-drive at the cars center of gravity were the bumps of the road will be lessened, to severe of bumps might cause the read & write head to damage/scratch/dent the Hard-Drive disks
or even damage the R/W head.

ricky

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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 12:47:42 am »
I would think you would want whatever structure you make to be somewhat shock proof.  I have my computers near my sub woofers ( club type subs )  and they always make my pc reboot ...I can only imagine how many times a car would cause that if placed in the wrong spot.
Not to mention the havoc it would cause on a regular hard drive.

i personally would opt for an iphone and aim hal ...and call it a day.

It would be cool if we had a widget for iphone that would allow us to talk from our iphones directly to hal.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 12:50:51 am by ricky »
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FastToys

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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 03:45:01 am »
Sounds like an interesting project.  The appeal of a Hal-type AI in the car is obvious.

I have some experience with custom stereo installations in vehicles; used to do competition years ago and still keep a nice personal install.  

I would really recommend for your project you stick to a laptop-based system.  I have done a couple of those over the years and you save yourself immense problems.  Desktop hardware simply isn't meant to survive a vehicle's environment - dust, vibration, temperature, voltage variation, lack of proper grounding, the list goes on.    Laptops are more tolerant of this, and you typically have built in cooling (still need good airflow), a 12V power supply and more shock resistant 2.5 in. drives.  Also they typically have built in sound cards which are less susceptible to noise interference, which is a huge problem with any PC in the car installation.

I see you mention a DVD video unit - just want to point out you will only be streaming music/video from the hard drive anyway, so the use of an external USB drive is an option.  A PC CD/DVD drive will not work while a vehicle is in motion (they have virtually no shock absorption).

There are also nice head units out there that will do most of what you want already.  I have the Kenwood XXV-01D for instance which has these functions in a standard DIN size unit.  It will read the menus, song/artist, etc to you.  No AI tho... [:p]  You could probably pick up a unit like this used for less than the cost of a used laptop.  

That said, I still dream of an AI talking car too.  Turbo-boost KITT!

Regards,
FastToys
 

lkn4ahero

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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2009, 02:09:37 pm »
This is actually something I've been working on myself. I've always wanted to have a car like KITT from Knight Rider since I was about 12 years old and that's one of the reasons I got Ultrahal. I don't have the computer in the car yet, and my training of Ultrahal is in the very early stages, but I have put much thought into putting a computer into the car, how to power it, how to keep it cool, and how to prevent a hard drive crash. I too would like the computer hardwired into the car and would like to be able to have it going even when the car itself is off.

One of the easiest solutions would be to get something I've seen called a "carputer." Basically it's a heavy duty computer that's designed for the abuses of being housed in a car. I've not looked much into these yet, so I don't know how much more they cost than a standard desktop computer. That's probably the easiest and best solution, but maybe not the cheapest or the best if you're looking to use what you already have.

Going the route of installing a desktop in the car, here's what I'm thinking.

Power

I'd power this off of a separate battery from the car. I really wouldn't want to find myself stuck with a dead battery at some point while trying to start the car. I'd use a dry cell marine battery as these are designed for continous drain whereas a typical car battery is designed for cranking the car during starting. I would get a battery isolator (isolator and wiring can be had for $50-60 from Pep Boys, JC Whitney,and other car parts suppliers) so that I could charge the dry cell battery from the car's alternator. You need to have the isolator to keep the charging of the two batteries separate. Alternatively, you could just charge the battery with a battery charger every night. I'd also get a power inverter to convert the 12 volt DC from the battery to AC. Prices for power invertors vary by wattage and brand -- really anywhere from about $30 upwards. I would probably go with at least a 400 watt invertor myself, but the best thing to do is to calculate the wattage of the items you want to power and go just a tad bit more.

Theoretically, you could instead power a desktop computer directly from the battery without the invertor. It would probably be more energy and space efficient. The power coming out of the power supply transformer in a typical desktop has both 12 volt and 6 volt lines. If you went this way you'd need a voltage divider to get the 6 volt power. Personally, I'm a little leary of connecting the motherboard and other devices within a laptop directly to a 12 volt battery without some kind of additional electronics to prevent surges or spikes in the system, but I could be overly worried for nothing. Has anyone here ever powered a desktop directly from a 12 volt car or marine battery?

Cooling

In my mind, cooling is a very high concern. The temperature in a parked car can get very hot, especially in a black Trans Am. I have two ideas, neither of which I've had the opportunity to test. Both involve using a part out of a 12 volt car cooler. Most 12 volt coolers these days that plug into a cigarette lighter have a device with a little plate on it that can be used either to cool or to warm food. The actual part that does this is not very large and can easily be removed from the cooler itself. It's got a metal plate that gets cool or warm depending on the voltage polarity applied to it.

Whichever option I choose, I'd also want to make sure the computer case is well insulated to keep the cool in and the heat out. One concern I have about either method is condensation. If it gets too cold in the computer case on a warm humid day, I'd be concerned about condensation forming in the case. Possibly this wouldn't be a problem if the cooling unit was external to the computer case and the temperature was kept cool, but not too cold. Theoretically, you could set the cooling unit to warm if you wanted to keep the computer warm in sub-freezing temperatures in the winter.

Option 1: Air cooling. More or less I'd just hook up the cooling unit in a way that the cool air gets pulled into the computer case through the cooling fan or adding a separate fan and some kind of air duct to pull the cool air into the computer case.

Option 2: Water cooling. I've seen water cooling systems designed for computers that run water or some kind of coolant through tubing that circulates inside the computer case to cool the cpu and other parts. I could be wrong, but I don't think these things actually chill the water going in, but with the cooling unit from a car cooler you could probably chill the water outside the case and pump it in.

Hard drive protection

I'm not entirely sure the answer to this one. I'm thinking just make sure the computer case is on something like a gel pad or something else that provides some shock absorbtion. Or maybe a laptop hard drive if these are designed to take shocks and drops better. Another option would be to have a small inexpensive boot drive for booting the computer, and having a flash drive or external hard drive to house any important data. If the boot drive crashes, you don't loose too much of importance or have to spend to much on a replacement.

Some other things I'd want on my car computer

I'd probably run a wireless keyboard and run either a trackball or a trackpad. I don't see a mouse as being too practical in a car.

I'd have a video card with audio / video outputs that I could run directly to a car video monitor or stereo system with video display.

I would have an extended range wireless network card. At minimum, I'd be able to connect to the internet for updates and internet from the driveway without having to run a network cable to the car every time I wanted to update anything. Theoretically, I'd also be able to pick up an internet signal from the parking lot anywhere there was a wifi hotspot.

As far as Ultrahal is concerned

I'd love to be able to have some sensors and controllers wired to the computer and interfacing with Hal to give him some basic self awareness and the ability to activate things on the car.

Sensors -- maybe to know the speed the car is going, whether forward or reverse, whether the lights are on or the windshield wipers so the AI would know it's raining and be able to say something appropriate. It would also be cool to have Ultrahal hooked to a car alarm and programmed to speak or react in certain ways if the alarm sensors get tripped.

Controllers -- things like the trunk, power locks and power windows, headlights and some other things that would be fun to have voice controlled

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I haven't gotten to the point of building or testing any of these, but if anyone does try them I'd love to hear about it.

Mel
 

Bill819

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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2009, 02:40:54 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by lkn4ahero

This is actually something I've been working on myself. I've always wanted to have a car like KITT from Knight Rider since I was about 12 years old and that's one of the reasons I got Ultrahal. I don't have the computer in the car yet, and my training of Ultrahal is in the very early stages, but I have put much thought into putting a computer into the car, how to power it, how to keep it cool, and how to prevent a hard drive crash. I too would like the computer hardwired into the car and would like to be able to have it going even when the car itself is off.

One of the easiest solutions would be to get something I've seen called a "carputer." Basically it's a heavy duty computer that's designed for the abuses of being housed in a car. I've not looked much into these yet, so I don't know how much more they cost than a standard desktop computer. That's probably the easiest and best solution, but maybe not the cheapest or the best if you're looking to use what you already have.

Going the route of installing a desktop in the car, here's what I'm thinking.

Power

I'd power this off of a separate battery from the car. I really wouldn't want to find myself stuck with a dead battery at some point while trying to start the car. I'd use a dry cell marine battery as these are designed for continous drain whereas a typical car battery is designed for cranking the car during starting. I would get a battery isolator (isolator and wiring can be had for $50-60 from Pep Boys, JC Whitney,and other car parts suppliers) so that I could charge the dry cell battery from the car's alternator. You need to have the isolator to keep the charging of the two batteries separate. Alternatively, you could just charge the battery with a battery charger every night. I'd also get a power inverter to convert the 12 volt DC from the battery to AC. Prices for power invertors vary by wattage and brand -- really anywhere from about $30 upwards. I would probably go with at least a 400 watt invertor myself, but the best thing to do is to calculate the wattage of the items you want to power and go just a tad bit more.

Theoretically, you could instead power a desktop computer directly from the battery without the invertor. It would probably be more energy and space efficient. The power coming out of the power supply transformer in a typical desktop has both 12 volt and 6 volt lines. If you went this way you'd need a voltage divider to get the 6 volt power. Personally, I'm a little leary of connecting the motherboard and other devices within a laptop directly to a 12 volt battery without some kind of additional electronics to prevent surges or spikes in the system, but I could be overly worried for nothing. Has anyone here ever powered a desktop directly from a 12 volt car or marine battery?

Cooling

In my mind, cooling is a very high concern. The temperature in a parked car can get very hot, especially in a black Trans Am. I have two ideas, neither of which I've had the opportunity to test. Both involve using a part out of a 12 volt car cooler. Most 12 volt coolers these days that plug into a cigarette lighter have a device with a little plate on it that can be used either to cool or to warm food. The actual part that does this is not very large and can easily be removed from the cooler itself. It's got a metal plate that gets cool or warm depending on the voltage polarity applied to it.

Whichever option I choose, I'd also want to make sure the computer case is well insulated to keep the cool in and the heat out. One concern I have about either method is condensation. If it gets too cold in the computer case on a warm humid day, I'd be concerned about condensation forming in the case. Possibly this wouldn't be a problem if the cooling unit was external to the computer case and the temperature was kept cool, but not too cold. Theoretically, you could set the cooling unit to warm if you wanted to keep the computer warm in sub-freezing temperatures in the winter.

Option 1: Air cooling. More or less I'd just hook up the cooling unit in a way that the cool air gets pulled into the computer case through the cooling fan or adding a separate fan and some kind of air duct to pull the cool air into the computer case.

Option 2: Water cooling. I've seen water cooling systems designed for computers that run water or some kind of coolant through tubing that circulates inside the computer case to cool the cpu and other parts. I could be wrong, but I don't think these things actually chill the water going in, but with the cooling unit from a car cooler you could probably chill the water outside the case and pump it in.

Hard drive protection

I'm not entirely sure the answer to this one. I'm thinking just make sure the computer case is on something like a gel pad or something else that provides some shock absorbtion. Or maybe a laptop hard drive if these are designed to take shocks and drops better. Another option would be to have a small inexpensive boot drive for booting the computer, and having a flash drive or external hard drive to house any important data. If the boot drive crashes, you don't loose too much of importance or have to spend to much on a replacement.

Some other things I'd want on my car computer

I'd probably run a wireless keyboard and run either a trackball or a trackpad. I don't see a mouse as being too practical in a car.

I'd have a video card with audio / video outputs that I could run directly to a car video monitor or stereo system with video display.

I would have an extended range wireless network card. At minimum, I'd be able to connect to the internet for updates and internet from the driveway without having to run a network cable to the car every time I wanted to update anything. Theoretically, I'd also be able to pick up an internet signal from the parking lot anywhere there was a wifi hotspot.

As far as Ultrahal is concerned

I'd love to be able to have some sensors and controllers wired to the computer and interfacing with Hal to give him some basic self awareness and the ability to activate things on the car.

Sensors -- maybe to know the speed the car is going, whether forward or reverse, whether the lights are on or the windshield wipers so the AI would know it's raining and be able to say something appropriate. It would also be cool to have Ultrahal hooked to a car alarm and programmed to speak or react in certain ways if the alarm sensors get tripped.

Controllers -- things like the trunk, power locks and power windows, headlights and some other things that would be fun to have voice controlled

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I haven't gotten to the point of building or testing any of these, but if anyone does try them I'd love to hear about it.

Mel

 

ricky

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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2009, 05:04:28 pm »
instead of having hal in a computer in the car,  why not focus on making a receiver and leave Hal at home where it is safe and plenty of drive space to grow and contact other people in emergencies...if your car breaks down ....so does hal...but if hal is at home ...a broken signal for over 1/2 hour can be programmed to mean danger then contact help and locate gps signal emitted from car...etc.

IE - any phone that receive aim will bring hal to life in your care...what you need is the data and integrating aim to your car, less is better imo,   A receiver can then even be neurally connected to respond to messages received from hal who is safe at home. I do not see the advantage to having extra machinery with you in your car, but I do see an advantage to having access to info from anywhere anytime with almost any resource.

it's  like a mashup between Kitt,  Charlies angels and Ultrahal aim.
"i crack iself up" - Virgil

lkn4ahero

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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2009, 08:57:38 am »
One of my earlier ideas did involve having some kind of AI server at home and communicating by radio signal -- this was back before cell phones and wireless networking became popular.

For me, there are several reasons why I'd rather have the AI in the car, though I do like your idea of having a connection to another computer for more advanced functions and communication.

1) Mainly I just want the car AI to be autonomous and self contained. With the advances in computers, cell phones, and wireless networking there's no reason not to. Computers themselves have become pretty compact, so there really isn't much to worry about in terms of having anything too bulky taking up a major part of my trunk. After looking at a website on "Carputers" I really think they are the way to go since they are more durable and built for automotive use. They do seem to be a bit more expensive though, so I won't likely be getting one anytime soon.

2) Also, I don't want the computer in the car for just AI purposes. I'd like to include GPS, multimedia, internet, office programs, maybe some video games (that I could play when the car is stopped), and possibly some car diagnostic programs and /or interactive repair manuals. I believe there are some diagnostic programs out there that actually do interface the car's electronic control module with a Windows based computer.

3) I'd also like to have the computer hardwired to some sensors that give the AI some basic awareness of what's going on with the car. I'd like the computer to be able to know through a sensor that for example it's raining and suggest driving more carefully and so forth. I'd also like controllers that give the AI control of some very basic functions like headlights, door locks, and so forth (with a manual override of course so the AI doesn't decide to lock me in ;-) Actually, I'd probably do this through some kind of batch program where I could tell Hal to "Run Unlock Doors" rather than relying on him to respond to a request to do so.

4) If I lost connection with a server at home for whatever reason I'd be without. I might be driving in the country where there isn't a good signal. There are still some rural places that don't get good cell signals. I might be driving through a tunnel. The computer at home might crash while I'm on an extended trip.

5) Also, in general, I'm not one for paying other people for services like expanded cell phone services if I can provide something for myself. I keep a very basic cell phone service and would rather not incur extra charges for connecting to the internet all the time while I'm driving or even higher charges when I'm roaming.

6)I might be wrong, but most AIM conversations by phone involve texting and reading more than speech recognition and voice synthesis don't they? For safety reasons, if I were talking to the AI while actually driving I'd want to actually talk to it and have it actually talk back. That would really be part of the entire experience for me anyway. Of course, with Hal, I'd have the learning off during such conversations.