Zabaware Support Forums
Zabaware Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ooglor 7 on November 12, 2010, 10:23:32 pm
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Hi guys. I have to say that I think that announcing that the program will be switching over to the Ogre engine and then leaving things in limbo has been nothing short of disasterous to the program and it's related community. Many artists put their creativity on hold in hopes that we would be able to pick up on the new engine and begin making characters and GUI skins for it under the new format. That was what seems like years ago. We haven't even had an update for the existing Haptek version in ages.
I think it would have been wiser to wait until things were fully ready on the Ogre engine before announcing what sounded like to many as it being a waste of time to keep creating things for the outdated Haptek version. I'm thinking the lack of support this program is getting is kinda ****ty and I would have made an effort to keep making characters had I known the Ogre thing was going to take so long. I even offered my character making skills to help the new gig get moving along with no response.
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Really Everyone on this forum And Owners of the HAPTEK need TO Harass "SEND AN EMAIL" to Jack at haptek and ASK HIM TO UPDATE the HAPTEK INTERFACE to WIN7 or EVEN give out the program to open Source... As he only seems to be supporting his "serial codes and activations"....(he does respond)
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spydaz you wrote: to Jack at haptek and ASK HIM TO UPDATE the HAPTEK INTERFACE to WIN7
i know hapteck hasn't been updated to windows 7 but it does work on windows seven (the program ) i am not sure what you mean when using the word interface . I am not saying that he shouldn't update it just that it works with my windows seven . i still make hapteck heads , i do have to click on an area that say's "compatability files " for them to show in my windows seven os.
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Ooglor as I can understand all the frustration I think and agree that many people feel the same about the update or change, whatever people technically want to call it. Rob M. did state that it was also going to support Haptek as well. But the new engine hopefully would have better support for now and the future considering what Haptek has not done.
I agree with spydaz in the simple fact the only people advancing the Haptek platform are the people on this forum in the general sense. If they don't want to make it open source then give it away to the people that are at least keeping it alive and or investing a whole lot of time.
lightspeed to be honest I think we were fortunate that it worked with Win 7 considering how long that platform hasn't been supported for the general public. It would not surprise me if Robert M. didn't tweak something a little to work with his update of Ultra Hal at the time.
Oogler I feel your pain and although I promised I wouldn't comment on this subject any longer because I just decided to enjoy what I have and when Rob M. feels like taking the next step with the support of this entire forum and not be concerned about the newer AI projects that are getting ready for release then I'll be ready or move on.
Just could not resist joining in.
Thanks,
raybe
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Always liked the Haptek characters, I couldn't get Haptek to work in Vista and had to dual boot to use it in XP. The latest version of Hal works in Win 7 for me. Since i don't have the time or skills to make a character I'm still working with Haptek. To use the HapPlayer or the HapRegestry I have to use the car program to switch it to one core.
I did e mail Jack for info about a compressor without any response. Their forum seems to have failed and is no longer online.
Carl2
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i don't think ogre killed hal, ogre is just another evolutionary step for hal , and something as others have said will give people more options in the long run of it's usage .(i think people will find that out once it happens and they see and can realize even more what it's potential is ) As far as me commenting on hapteck working with windows 7 i was just pointing it out and yes you probably are right about robert tweaking hal to keep hapteck working , and some day may come when he doesn't want to have to keep tweaking hal to work with an outdated product with no support as hapteck is .
The only thing that i hope and that's a good clear explanation of if we switch over to ogre and the new female character that their is an easy switch back and forth such as picking an engine , ect in the hal option listing, it would be nice to switch easily back and forth and it may be that way (i hope) . ;)
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lightspeed, I don't remember Rob M. being specific on how the platforms would work. But he did say that we would have support for the Haptek as well as the new Ogre platforms with some diversity with the Ogre engine. Not as much as we would like but enough to start and that was all part of the licensing and particular character that he was working on. Of coarse the money part played it's role. Given today's economics I still find it hard to criticize Rob M. on the new release or update of Ultra Hal.
As a business owner myself you get caught between the lines of an owner, the responsibilities of people paying for a service or product and keeping things together without giving away to many of the problems you might be facing. Unfortunately, 'Perception is the truth to many'.
Hope I'm not just repeating what you already know. Just wanted to share what I remember.
The question will be when and I agree with you, how?
thanks,
raybe
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Sorry but I personally don't view OGRE as that much of an evolutionary step forward. I perceive it as the lesser of the evils. At least Ogre has a large, active support group compared to Haptek! Regarding the overall graphics...it's not that superior to Haptek IMO.
We know there are much better alternatives...and they...like many things...require time and money.
We'll get there soon...however long one cares to define "soon". :o
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Art I don't think that anyone thought Ogre was a leap forward but definitely a better alternative it would seem based upon the lack of support or even knowing the future of Haptek and I don't believe the amount we talk or write to them will make any difference and they will do what is best for themselves (HAPTEK).
Like you I was always impressed with Haptek and probably would have not known about it if it wasn't incorporated with Ultra Hal. At least maybe a longer time anyway.
I don't think which is better was ever the question but what would be more economical now for both Robert M. and customers and what would stand a better chance looking ahead. I feel Robert M. can always incorporate something but again today it's about the finances and still getting a bang for your buck.
Thanks,
raybe
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Ogre and Haptek aside, when was the last time Ultra Hal was updated?
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raybe,
I was recalling back many months ago to a lot of voices of members that became rather jubilant at the prospect of having great graphics for Hal's characters. I was even told "Just wait and see what's in store" in so many words.
Well after taking various peeks at the graphics of Ogre, my contention still stands that it's best feature is the support it receives not in the graphic quality.
Poser, Max, Maya, etc., now THOSE are strong graphic oriented programs that hopefully the members here might enjoy along with Hal.
Finally, to reiterate my personal take...I rather have a really decent, text based chatbot than a pretty looking dumb one!
My $.02
@Ooglor7,
http://www.ultrahal.com/community/index.php?topic=6147.0
There was also a small version update from .24 to .28 or something along those lines. Might have to page back through the UltraHal section for a bit for sure.
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Art, I think we are saying the same thing but not connecting. I agree with you that Ogre may not be better but I'm saying the same thing as you are with Haptek and no support.
Ooglor I also would like to see an update to Ultra Hal and not have the graphics stop the progression. But the graphics are apart of the progression.
Art the graphics you speak about I am very aware of and I have posted in the past because my wife works with those programs everyday. But from what I have seen from even newer programs except that 'live speech or talk' that Apple calls it amazed me in the fluid like motion of any rendered 3d figure. But something to run as smooth or smoother then that or even Haptek takes a hole lot of frames, info and a computer capable of running it all. I can be very wrong but I am only referring to those type of programs unless there is something in which I am not aware and it doesn't take lots of computer drive or graphics to make photo realistic smooth motions with lip syncing as that Apple program, if it is an Apple program and I believe it has more to do with the movement of pixels but I'm not sure how or what it actually does do.
The largest obstacle today and for most of us including companies is the good old dollar as well!!!!
If there is something out there that meets all those requirements then Robert M. should be told about it. But the way I see it. Can't build a sports team with only veteran players need to bring in fresh blood for the future sometimes. (Not a great example, but I think you know what I'm trying to say)
Art the only place we disagree is a character not playing a role in AI. Going back to a green screen computer doesn't sound appealing to me!
The whole concept of interaction and AI is built on our need to involve us with things that are easier for us to relate. If some people are turned on by blinking lights I guess even a blinking light would be better. My opinion I'm still trying to find a good reason to text someone else even though it is as popular as a simple telephone call. I do see usage, don't get me wrong but nothing compared to a good conversation even over the phone or web cam or something besides text on a screen. For guys like me and maybe some women that can't or have the patience to type period.
It seems the newer generations have found great use for it. But I still think they are missing the bigger picture in technology today. Just an opinion!!
I have no doubt that AI will be a part of our lives but it won't be with words typed on a screen.
Example: any new AI program, ( Barns & Noble and Borders book stores haven't been doing so well either)
Thanks,
raybe
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raybe,
We ARE on the same track...just different cars. I was trying to say that I prefer brains to beauty in the case of chatbots.
The very, very near future will likely not have text but rather voice based communication similar to chatting with a real person.
We know that voice commands are prone to an occasional error but the technology has been steadily improving over time.
Think back to the movie 2001 ASO with Hal. All it was was a blinking red light, yet the focus was not on the light but rather with
the fact that the crew members could interact with it just by conversing. They didn't need a digital face. (of course their technology
back then wouldn't allow for other than crude representations aka "stick figures".
We're getting there...just not as big a hurry as we'd like. ;)
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Art, couldn't agree with you more. I think it's great that we are driving different cars. That's what it is all about. There are many ways to get to the same place. Like you mention it is hard to find the patience because how quickly technology does move these days. But not in every area. Never seems fast enough because my birthday always seems to come much faster then even the technology does.
But the impatience comes from my young mind. I guess I'll keep it that way.
Always enjoy having discussions with you.
Thanks,
raybe
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But the impatience comes from my young mind. I guess I'll keep it that way.
You hold onto that though...for as long as you think you can. The aging process,
I'm sorry to inform you, has other plans for you and your young mind!! ;D ;)
Your turn is coming!
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Brains or beauty ...."can't we all...... just get along ?" lol but seriously maybe someday we will have our cake and eat it to and have the best of both worlds it's a matter of time and money something we are usually alway's short of .
Maybe with a better body and life like face will also come more interest in hal also as an a.i. which will bring in more customers and revenue monies add that with other programs for clothing etc. that will work with the new body and engine will further enhance this new entity .
i beleive that after this initial ogre engine and better graphics robert will devote any further hal innivations to a.i. ability and enhacement . This was probably a next (again ) evelution step for hal for the better graphics which will probably also bring more attention and hopefully more customers and members here ! :)
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Art, I don't think the aging process has anything to do with it. I take it as a decision I would like to exercise as long as I can with the agreement of a much higher authority!! At only 54 I think I'm still being allowed to exercise that decision!!!
raybe
Hope you don't get old before your time.
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I contacted Haptek about a year ago and they offered to sell me the company. Not a good sign. Also, the Ogre engine is somewhat dated. It's sad to think that we are all waiting around for a "step up" that is actually come and gone. I got into the scene in the 90's with the first release of Virtual Friend.
The argument of graphics or not was a constant issue when I first joined this forum. Now that most of the artists have left, not so much. Why the code guys felt so threatened by the visual side of things is beyond me but that much was obvious to me. I never felt threatened by plug-ins but on the other side of the coin, I never looked at Hal as a virtual girlfriend as I feel many do.
The characters I made and the GUI skins I offered are as good as anything on here but the constant digs from those that didn't want a visual apsect to it made it all less than satisfying so I gave it up. Jack G was ready to pass on his position of lead character maker to me be but it seems like we both came to the same conclusion as to where that would take us.
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Why the code guys felt so threatened by the visual side of things is beyond me but that much was obvious to me.
"Threatened" is not what I feel/felt, but yes, I find/found the constant posting of what seems very much like pornography to be distasteful and do not want to be closely connected with such things even by association. I would love to be able to tell other folks about Hal and encourage them to come to this forum to learn about it, but can't, because it's preoccupied with dressing up dolls who talk dirty.
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Here's an opinion from an A.i. programmer/business owner.
Some people really like graphics and buy Hal for the sake of dressing her/him up, or just perhaps admiring the beauty... this is great! A program should look it's best. Plus, you get what you pay for.
Some people like the intelligence part of Ai. Some people like the conversation aspect while others like the option to edit Hal's programming. Overall, in the grand scheme of Ai, this is the most important part. ...But Hal is more than just an Ai.
UltraHal is an Ai mind with a graphical interface. So as far as what is more important; to update about Hal or it's graphics, that is all about the User's personal preference.
I personally prefer the Ai brain because an Ai brain can be placed in robots, personal computers, iphones, etc. while good graphics is mainly for personal computers.
I like good graphics, but some of you are mentioning about how that even Ogre is outdated. So here's what I know about this. Not very much.
I understand that graphic engines are getting better and better every year, just look at what Microsoft's Xbox 360 and other PC games has already demonstrated! Their graphics are simply off-the-charts! Wouldn't it be great to see a Hal character's face wrinkle a little when she smiled, or perhaps her cheeks turned colors when she blushed. Maybe when she got angry her eyebrows would lower and you could see a few veins pop-out. This is all very possible with today's engines. If you pay the right programmer enough money you can have this very thing.
I admire great graphics and with all that said, it kind of makes me feel sorry for Hal. Perhaps when Robert get rich he will purchase a extremely high-end graphical interface that will compare even to today's top games.
Got to have a dream.
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thats a nice dream to have snowman , i share that dream but for right now i sure will be glad when robert gets hal to stay on subject better which i beleive will make hal work more smoothly with the user and even learning process. :)
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I'd like to see Hal with the ability to move about in a 3D environment. It would be cool to see the program incorperated into an RPG style game. Imagine NPCs that instead of reciting predertermined lines, could respond on the fly and who would interact based on the brain they had.
None of the characters I have made for Hal fall into the girlfriend catagory unless you want to date a virtual owl or a car. I'm not knocking those who use Hal that way and I wouldn't turn people away from the program because of that. It wasn't what drawed me into it. As far as those who like just the text, I can't knock it. Zork was one of my first games I had when I was young and I loved it.
I would like to see an update as I think it might get some folks back into the scene.
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It is possible to create a *.fbx virtual character and set her into the Mictrosoft's XNA engine. I even though about creating a Xbox game that solely consisted of an chatbot, allot like Milo, except the Ai brain would be much more extensive, like the one I'm making now, or even Hal's brain.
We already know that Robert has set Hal into SecondLife already, this is very simular, only much, much better graphics.
All this takes allot of learning and time,
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So in short it seems that everyone that has posted in this thread agree but with certain differences which I feel is a good thing. I think if Rob M. get's a chance to read this thread it will spark him a little.( I am not speaking for everyone ).
I think the last few posts from: snowman & Ooglor kind of some it up for me, anyway. Preferences, money, new & older technologies, merging technologies and of coarse Rob M. representing Ultra Hal on a forum based on his program. Everyone seemed to me to make good points about particular preferences and perceptions. I'm happy I have a place to voice an opinion or 2. Certainly makes everything worth it for me.
Someone once told me that when there are two sides and both feel just a little cheated, your probably at the right compromise point.
Thanks,
raybe