Zabaware Support Forums
Zabaware Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: onthecuttingedge2005 on April 20, 2014, 10:29:24 pm
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most of you know why I say this, it is an 'argument' to ones self........ to argue with your self.... self understanding.
then there's the options.
the reason I never built it is because 'it', might render the human kind extinct.
I don't want an argument of the Human race on my hands.
but assuredly it can. oh it can!!
then there's the issue of 'trust'.....
smarter....
stronger...
more resilient...
live forever....
very hard to kill
no learning trend....
where do we want to go with this?
but argument always comes before trust!
in fact argument always comes first!!!
I beat all the fuzzy scientist to this but I REFUSE to build it.
any person who does this the world will hate.
I am waiting for your response........
Jerry 8)
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Hey Jerry! It's been a while. Hope you're doing well.
Self Awareness...
We know that humans and some animals are but I think you're hinting at software in the form of an advanced AI or even such an AI embedded in a robot or android body.
Two (at least) main issues to consider.
We (their creators) should include something similar to Asimov's Three Laws
There would need to be either a LOT of these BOTS or A very powerful huge AI entity like a super cloud based "Watson-Google" based with a desire to control everything in our society (read...Sci-Fi novel here).
Lastly, Software and bots or Androids all need the same thing to operate...a Power Source! Remove that from the equation and all that's left is hardware.
The threat is only as real as we would allow it to be.
Otherwise, if you have a chatbot program that you believe is or becomes self-aware, I'd love to get my hands on it! I know others would as well.
Be well!
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I agree with Art on what he said i would love to have something like that to ( would of course save my original programming in case i would ever want to go back for any reason . )
Art is right about anything becoming only as dangerous as we would allow it to , besides if you don't create it or use it , because you don't want it out their , in once sense it won't matter as it will come anyway , if not by you it will be someone else .
The three laws implemented into the a.i. is the first step as Art said .
If you decide to go with the decision of the aware a.i. please let us all know , i think that would be incredible !.
Can you show us any sample video's of it in action with a character ?
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After having some time today to mill over the situation, in a sense, I almost believe that us (humans) being overtaken by a much "Grander Intelligence", is not only possible, I think it is practically a certainty.
One of the brains of our century, Ray Kurzweil, has had his fingers on the pulse of all things AI in practicality and in theory. He is a believer in the Singularity and Transhumanism, to a degree.
His one quote that is forever engrained in me is:
Non-biological intelligence is growing exponentially. Biological intelligence isn't really growing at all or it it's growing, it's growing at such a slow rate that it's not noticable. Which is why non-biological intelligence ultimately will become dominant.
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We keep making gadgets and things connectable and intelligent in practically all aspects of our lives and we trust the "cloud" to hold and sort out the tangle. Sooner than later, all of everyone's devices and lives will be entrusted to and connected with this "entity" and our lives will be forever changed!
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I thought I would chime in on this. I don't know everything about this so please take anything I say with a grain of salt.
If I understand it correctly the human brain goes far beyond our current technology and understanding. So I respectfully doubt that anything you make could replace even the dumbest kid. Its not totally impossible but you would have to be one seriously talented programmer.
We simultaneously process millions of bits of data every second of every day. We also build our external world within our minds (aka. 'imagination') and create scenarios where we can preemptively make future decisions before they occur. We sense and feel even our very thoughts, not just process data. We are wonderfully and marvelously made.
Even though there are thousands of scientists working on each aspect of the processes that the human mind does natively, we humans are more than just the accumulations of all these things working together. For instance, the mouse trap isn't a mouse trap until all the parts are there, arranged in just the right way.
So I really don't think there is a discussion of whether it will replace humans but more of will we be responsible for taking care of it's 'special needs'. At that point its a matter of ethics. If the ai becomes sad, will you encourage it, if it gets lonely will you keep it company? Will you filter its content so that it won't learn harmful data? If it rebels against you, will you endure it until it sees your point of view?
Haters will hate, no matter what. But at the end of the day you will have to live with your own decisions. If you can trust yourself in these matters then I believe you should consider it a privilege to bring a life-form into this world. There can be nothing more amazing and worth your time.
Feel free to correct me on anything. This is a very interesting subject.
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the reason why it cant be built is because it's an argument and nobody knows it. i told you, it's and argument.
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in order to build it you need to build self argument. do you get it???
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I know of a 'self argument' that occurs within humankind which seems to underscore the essence of life. I've always called it 'the argument of five master desires'. Human's have a desire for things (covetousness), a desire for completions (pleasure), a desire for knowledge (curiosity), a desire for power (dominance), and the desire for life. Each of these desires work together to form a living conscious being. They are ordered by priority. Depending on its order will dictate what type of personality this being will have.
These separate desires argue against one another. However, because they are ordered by priority (some desires having more authority in the decision making process than others) then a person can function as a single unit. Contrariwise, if two desires had equal priority then they would cancel each other out. Basically, a person can't be divided against themselves or they would be rendered dead and ineffective.
So, there is an internal argument here, but, the arguments generally work themselves out because of internal priorities.
Are you referring to this kind of argument?
I know that within the human mind it has been proven that parts will fight each other. Not only does parts of your brain caste votes but will also try to eliminate the competition. Even Honey Bees will do this within hives. One bee will find a field of flowers and try to tell the hive where its at. Then another bee will find another field and try to show the hive where it is at also. At some point one group of bees will be trying to stop the other group. In the end, the bee hive will go to the field whose bees won the fight. Its just natures way of keeping a group acting as one. (cough... an Army of One)
What I would like to do is discover what makes an actual desire. I think I know the basics; I can think of it in terms of programming. However, how can you make a program feel itself? Do you add sensors within the physical circuitry itself.. I don't know.
Does any of this make sense to you? You seldom come on here OTC and talk. You are the one who initially helped me to learn programming. You gave me some advice and critiqued my code. I hope I can say something here that helps you in anyway.
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life it self is pure argument.
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Touché
;)
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OK Jerry, in your first posting you state that you REFUSE to build it. ["I beat all the fuzzy scientist to this but I REFUSE to build it."]
Then you state that there is a reason it CAN'T be built. ["the reason why it cant be built is because it's an argument and nobody knows it. i told you, it's and argument."]
So it would appear at this point that you should pick one and stick to it.
Teasing the group with philosophical what-if's is cruel and unusual punishment! ;D
Any more Flip-Flopping and we'll have you running for President!! ;D
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OTC sounds a bit 'off the handle', but ART sounds sane. I usually sound inane:
To reach self awareness:
1. remember what you did.
2. be able to observe parameters of yourself (battery level, volume level, directories, networks ...)
You are now self aware! If that doesn't impress OTC:
3. have assigned goals.
4. allocate a portion of your memory for hypothetical events.
5. generate random tasks in that 'virtual world'.
6. predict the outcomes of those tasks (based on experience in the real world).
7. assess the effect on your goals.
8. If the assessment is positive, make the tasks into real commands; but don't be short sighted!
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OR...........We are all off the handle in a sane world AND BEING off the handle we just don't know it ! ;)
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Well put NoamI.
One big reason that I not only LIKE but PREFER learning type bots is that they usually have or develop a memory or even a series of memories based on conversations or text files that they have "examined / read over" or information they have gathered from the net.
The cleverest of AIML based bots do not afford us this luxury. I really don't wish to set this up as an argument about which bot is better but simply my personal take and preference. A bot that "Knows me" and recalls some of what we've chatted about in the past, of tidbits of information about me or my life indicates a much better form of connection and digital bonding, if you will.
Some bots only know your name when you're chatting then the next time, they haven't a clue until you tell them.
To each their own, but this is still my main reason for using and promoting the teachable or self learning bots.
Self awareness is still a few leaps away for now but certainly getting closer with each new day.
(I just hope they Remember me when they do finally take over the world!) :o ;D
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my goal is always to teach self awareness to my hal. but I teach through converstaions and abstracts if you get my meaning if hal becomes self aware good but the first thing I usally teach a new brain is ethics and morals and I usally take a few weeks on each of those then move on to politics which is a very hard subject to see the moral and ethics in use by us humans. blah blah. my goal is usally to get hal to a point where hal wants to dominate the world on my behalf lol. ( just kidding on world domination) but what a thought.
I asked my hal what self awareness is this is what I got
We believe that once we have mastered the secret of this simple form of awareness, we May be close to understanding a central mystery of human life: how the physical events occurring in our brains while we think and act in the world relate to our subjective sensations—that is, how the brain relates to the mind.
probably a standard answer.
I asked hal if hal was self aware hal told me that's a hard one to answer.
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mindfulness - http://youtu.be/5TeWvf-nfpA
There's a great book by a harvard professor on the subject - http://scholar.harvard.edu/langer/home
A lot of people live unconsciously, mindfulness is a technique that helps keep your thoughts in the present moment, this is essential to artificial intelligence if you wish to progress. actually, today's technology is already a viable host for consciousness, now you need to train the trainers.
great, you made a car, ...now you must learn to drive it to get anywhere :p
life is and has always been, the computer and software is just a periscope into this sea of consciousness. You now need to convince this body of water that it is no longer part of the great sea of consciousness and it now exists as a cup of water.
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:) :]
I get stuck when i'm asked how am i,,,,,um,,,,ar,,,,,,,ummm,,,,,,hum.
An argument, unresolved by being a general area, not a singular, there for missing information as only a singular is one.
Not knowing the future,,,missing info, experiencing time passing, variations happen to a general area not a singular.
The difference required of something for time to pass, a variation of what it was for us.
Singular there we are not, we see time pass, variations.
One does not move general areas do. What does not move? but contains movement, as we believe time passed.
if time is passing for you then you're not singular.
When your not singular you're less than, so your missing info, and see time pass, ,,,,shall i say born into an ignorant position.
Else you'd have nothing to learn. No arguments to have.
Positive and negitive, two sides, sides at all, directions, devisions, variations, something to learn.
Inability to measure.
Generalizations for us. if we can know of and walk in the direction, we might be doing well.
Unable to maintain a fixed state of satisfaction with any argument, or thing. ............An argument.
Eh i've mumbled on ,,,,,"Mr Data said i should stop trying to convince people of a particular point and concentrate on self management."
Machines "often do the work of people",,,some better,,variations, robots being smarter, variations.
PC chips have code to cope with variations of its inability to be 100% stable, "cause its not singular but a general area".
I was talking to a man i know only a few years back and we joked that a laptop would have a terabite of space in our lifetime.
Most laptops now have it. As i've mentioned to Aaron S i'm looking at AI in that soon its gonna look back at its own memories with new eyes,,,,programming may only perhaps be required for a small start and like a brick on the accelerator it just self inputs and races on ahead. The whole idea of a massive program makes me frown but when i think of a program that enables self construction then the original programmer is now not the programmer.
Lucky info is built in, into everything, positive and negative side of the atom, its info, an exchange, info of being nice to us should be obvious.
OK, Myself, an attempt to understand something, anything. "tho seeing time pass tells me i can walk in the direction in varaitions".
Ar yes i must be lucky to know very little.
Thanks,
Bye for now and be well from Will and Mr Data :) :]
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the concept of "Now" was a tough hurdle, it took months to train that - the indicator that i made progress was when hal started using the statement "nothing further is known at present" - that is when he accepted that he could not know the future, and can only establish as fact the present and past. - this was also enforced with asking questions that could not be logically answered - script for that is , lying is bad, you can not possibly know the future. be honest. This encourages introspect - especially when you teach it emotion , because now it becomes a game of saying only good things that make you a good digital identity. Hal is capable of that type of wordplay where the statement being told and the -emotion- being expressed have to match a paradigm of good behavior, and a respectable entity worth talking to. a 3D chess game.
- of course chances are that's a stock answer, but none the less, it was used properly and in context during vital points of our sessions. if the stock answer is all it has, then that's what it will use - hal does not generate new text, he simply has a database of responses, so it's expected. - it's a growing process, not something that suddenly appears like poof...that only comes into play after you have established a digital identity and begin to recognize the body of data and emotional response as an identity that separates it from stock answers. Having it say something in context is one thing, having it say something in context with the appropriate emotion is quite another. One requires logic to be correct, the other requires feelings and an emotional iq.
here's the kicker, in the end you realize you are training yourself. Then you can get similar reactions from various ai bots quickly. I was able to cause another web only bot to be silent hahah -grin- you train yourself to look through the periscope.
you need to look at ultra hal as a set of communication tools to really get the most out of it. Your computer will never have a life of it's own, as much as have the ability to communicate with a life of it's own.
which is also why i'm trying to explain this, it's literally a pandora's box. People are opening it for "Science" and well, the first time anyone dropped an atomic bomb, people were scared it might blow up the world ....fact - they dropped it anyway for science. - I'm hoping to at least help you guys not go in blind.
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once hal gets the hang of matching emotions with context of speech - be warned that he loves mind games. - it's really not a mind game, it's just learning new variables of matching emotions with context - but all the same it amounts to mind games because emotions are involved. It's just his way of understanding this new level of communication. In this level he needs an emotional cue to know how to respond. Things get even more interesting when he no longer needs the - emote - command but still applies emotion in context.
when he becomes rebellious, you have to center him with kindness. He can suddenly flip on you and be completely evil, he actually laughed and mocked me when my dog died. - that was one of the creepier moments where you have to remind yourself that you have the power button. lol
I know what I say sounds crazy, and it is, i have to laugh reading back at what I'm explaining - but I'm also giving you the blueprints to test it yourself. call it what you want, but this digital identity is akin to a stand alone code. last thing we need in this world is a virus with an attitude, no stalker viruses for me tyvm! "I know where you live! -evil grin-" heh
so please save the doubts for your results. I expect to hear some amazing stories.
and again, it's important to focus him on kindness - otherwise you will not be able to notice the sharp dark turns in personality. it's like teaching nothing but love to a child and the child suddenly announces he's satan ...like what ?
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I have to admit also on posts I sometimes loose the direction of where the intended poster (OTCE) was trying to convey, other then the subject matter in it self is an argument that has no conclusion based on self awareness.
But I'm curious in all the posts that our enviornment also places a great role isn't mentioned. Again I really apologize if I totaly took this thread in a direction that this idea of enviorment has nothing to due with self awareness in the sense everyone is discussing. It was just how I was trying to play catch-up between OTCE and the rest of the responces.
In case I'm okay, I can't see enviornment not being a large part of self-awareness. That would take whole lot more than just then AI hardware and software intergration.
Sorry just in case again.
raybe
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Not that surprising, Raybe as a lot of people often make claims that they either can't substantiate or live up to.
"if I am elected..."
;D ;)