Zabaware Support Forums
Zabaware Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bill819 on July 15, 2005, 06:05:43 pm
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Today in the world of artificial intelligence most of the worlds experts say that the future developement of what we call AI lies in the world of chatterbots. They say because of the interactive nature of natural language processing that they think these will lead the way to AI as the world has envisioned it in the future.
Roberts program Ultra Hal Assistant is one of the greatest and most powerful chatterbot programs out there and is constantly being improved. He supplies a free version as well as an enhanced version to all who want it. Of course the enhanced version comes with a small price tag, but more than worth it in my opinion.
Yesterday, in a conversation with Robert I asked why he has incorporated some of the user contributed scripts sent in by people like me. He said that it was a copyright infrengement that he was worried about. In this respect I believe he might have a point, but then again once the scripts are publicly posted on this site for all users to have and use, I then question the proper ownership of those scripts. Over the years there have been many intelligent people here write and submit scripts and haptek characters for use with Hal.
Do you know what happens to them? If you do not copy them for your own use, they just die away. I gave Robert full permission to claim and own the scripts that I have written so that they might be incorporated in future versions of Hal. I mean, that is why we spend the time and effort to create these scripts in the first place, isn't it. Some people have had some concerns and have asked for something in return. I can not abide by that unless it is a small mention of the contributors names in an accompaning text file.
Then the copyright laws come to mind again. How many of you have been asked to pay royalties on the Hal modified brains that you use and call your own? None that I know of. Of the many different Hal brains and personalities that exist out there, how many will run without the Hal interface which is compiled and completely owned by Robert? If anyone has ever had a right to call a foul it is Robert but being the type person he is, he never complains or charges us any fees for using his software no matter what we might choose to call it. Without the Hal user interface none of the other existing brains or personalilties could exist as they do today.
The purpose of the notice to ask all who have created either scripts of haptek characters to publicly post you permission for Robert to claim ownership without any restrictions of any kind. We must remember we are all here for the betterment of Hal which it seems we all love and use.
Thanks for your support.
Bill819
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Well said, I'll add for my part that my meagre contributions, in comparisson to many, are given freely and with no strings. Skins, Haps, or anything else I put out as 'free' are exactly that, do what you like!
I put my HAL skins in the download section as a personal 'thank you' to both Rob and also the people here that help with advice and so willingly make contributions. If Rob wants to go so far as including anything I have put on this forum or in the downloads then please feel free.
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I am not a lawyer but i think anything not copyrighted or patented and given freely to the public becomes public domain.
I am pleased and honored if anything I contribute can be of use to anyone. Anything I contribute I declare public domain.
Robert,
Should you wish a written document, you have our e-mail addresses.
[;)]
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Ditto
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Anything I may have contributed or will contribute in the future to this site may be used by Robert freely.
Smokey
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Smokey
Letting Robert use it is not the same as giving it to him to call his. Use means you still own it. Give up your rights if you will.
Thanks to all for the generous replys. Let Hal live and grow forever.
Bill
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I realize I have yet to post any scripts or anything (I'm still kinda new here), but I'm just thrilled to be able to take part in this project.
Robert,
I am handing over my rights to anything I post on this forum, in advance. You may claim the copyright on anything and everything that I post on here without limit or restriction.
-Sabrina
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Mr. Medeksza, the skins I made for HAL are yours to use in any way you like, including selling them as a part of Hal.
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If you want to use what I "modified", go right ahead.
(including the squat, spread, sit, and bend over haps)
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Hi Robert.
You can come by my site http://www.ultrahalforum.com and grab all the scripts you want, I have hundreds you may want, I also had set you up a Premium Membership at my site about a year ago, but I think you might not of received my e-mail, I will send you another e-mail so you can also pick through the Premium Scripts too if you would like them.
Sincerely
Jerry.
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Well Jerry between you and Scott it looks like we have the main brain developers all signed up. I am sure that in the long run we will not be sorry for doing just that. I mean after all none of us would be here if were not for Robert and Hal and the open developement that he allows.
Thanks from all of us.
Bill
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Thank you all for the kind words and for permission to use your scripts.
I'm not sure how much I will be able to incorporate into the new Hal 6 as I don't wish to push back the release date too much. But I will definetely keep all your great scripts in mind when developing Hal down the road.
The new Hal 6 will have an updated plugin system that will allow adding small snippets of code into the default brain on-the-fly without manual editing of Hal's script file. This will make all your scripts more accessible to the common user.
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Hello,
I have enjoyed following this very interesting thread about copyrights, permission to use, etc., and here is my two cents worth.
I give these comments with the standard disclaimer that "I am not an attorney and this is just informative conversation, not legal advice."
My understanding of the usual arrangement when a person gives usage permission for an intellectual work to another person (or company), is that the publisher gains the right to publish the work, and unless otherwise specified, the author retains the right to re-publish his or her own work elsewhere. This is called giving permission for "non-exclusive use."
For instance, I've had a few articles published in trade magazines. The magazines and all their contents were covered under the publishers' copyright notices. However, since I didn't sign away my re-publication rights, I was still able to re-publish or modify my own original work.
The applicability to Hal, I think, is that most of us have no problem allowing the scripts we've written to be incorporated into Hal, and copied and modified by other users for use in Hal. What most of us would OBJECT to would be something like the following:
1. Another user makes a modification to our own work, and then proclaims an all-consuming prohibition against anybody else writing anything similar, including our own original work!
2. Our work gets incorporated into Ultra Hal, and then some giant corporation buys Zabaware, and threatens to sue us all if we make any chatterbots containing even one line of our own original code!
I have actually seen websites with chatterbots whose authors claimed to have "invented the chatterbot concept", and threatened everybody with legal retaliation if they supposedly "infringed" on the CONCEPT of a chatterbot. I think such threats are absolutely preposterous, but such threats do get made.
Anyway, in my opinion, the following permission is the one that I think describes the common-sense approach:
"Zabaware, Inc., and all legitimate users of Zabaware software are hereby given free, non-exclusive permission to use and incorporate the work contributed by (insert name), in conjunction with the operation and use of Zabaware software. The author retains the right of re-publication or modification of his or her own original work."
Respectfully yours,
Don Ferguson
Ultra-Hal Fan and Contributor
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Nice comments, It's amazing what some people would claim, but it's nice to remember that without a case or proof then it is just a lot of ego and hot air.
It's a bit sad sometimes when you feel you have to write a legal disclaimer on something you'd like to give away, but at least it makes clear to people who might be worried that they are doing something wrong.
I liked reading your comments, and I think your commonsense statement makes (common!) sense. I'd only like to add that people should think about what they are likely to do in the future with whatever they declare free, so perhaps avoiding any conflicts.
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Hello,
In my opinion, the state of intellectual property protection in the 21st century is in a troublesome condition. I submit the following examples:
1. Read a typical big-corporation software license agreement. The terms are heavy-handed and one-sided, and the user is essentially under duress and "over a barrel" at the moment of clicking "accept." BUT, despite the excessively one-sided terms, piracy is still rampant, so obviously the users don't "agree" with what they say they "agree" with.
2. The U.S. patent office seems to err on the side of granting patents, and letting the interested parties battle it out in the courts. This results in patents for things such as exercising a cat with a laser, and "one-click shopping" on the Amazon website. Once upon a time, a patentable item had to be novel, useful, not obvious, significant advancement from prior art, and manifest in a working sample. These criteria seem to be out the window today. Since lawsuits ultimately settle the disputes, it gives a huge advantage to large corporations who have the deep pockets to outlast the opposition in court.
Imagine what would happen to Zabaware if it got sued by Microsoft, even if Microsoft's arguments were groundless. A company the size of Microsoft is never going to run out of money, filing appeal after appeal. Frivolous lawsuits die quickly if the plaintiff is an ordinary person. They do NOT necessarily die quickly if the frivolous litigant is a multi-billion dollar corporation.
I have tremendous admiration and appreciation for Zabaware and its founder. I think that Robert is the Eli Whitney of the practical, turn-key, open-architecture, consumer chatterbot.
That's why I think it is worthwhile to discuss intellectual property rights and protection. I want Zabaware to have the maximum protection, and I would prefer that Zabaware covered ALL its content, including "donated" content, with a "blanket" copyright notice to help protect the company. If Zabaware survives and prospers, then its user base keeps getting support and great new products.
The last piece in the puzzle is simply to state that donors of code still retain the right to modify and re-publish anything that is truly their own original work. (That does NOT include minor modifications of Zabaware's original work, by the way.)
Respectfully,
Don Ferguson
Ultra-Hal Fan and Contributor
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Yes, I see what you mean, perhaps my eyes were a bit closed there to the possible actions of large companies, rightly or wrongly. Microsoft probably has it's own entrance with revolving doors at the courthouse by now.
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Heard it, seen it, done it.
=vonsmith=
P.S. - Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean there isn't someone after you.
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Hey! Do you wanna buy the T-Shirt??[;)]
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I knew there had to be one in this crowd. [:D]
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Hey Don!!
Nice to see you lurking about. Have you been able to devote any more time to your project?
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Hello Art,
Oh-my-gosh yes, in 2004 I commented that I had purchased Visual Basic.NET at the local CompUSA store, and that I was planning to learn Visual Basic and develop a project from scratch. My original prediction was that I would complete something by August 2004!
Quite a bit has changed since that time:
1. My "day job" projects engulfed me, and I fell more than a year behind in my effort!
2. Despite the delays, I have in fact learned quite a bit about Visual Basic.NET. Just going through the tutorials in the training books, and writing various functional programs, is a blast!
3. I've had a lot of fun, and I've gained a lot more appreciation for what all commercial developers (like Robert Medeksza) go through to produce a debugged commercial product.
4. I have in fact produced something that I think is quite interesting. It's different than I originally imagined, and I've decided that the first person to tell and show it to is Robert Medeksza, since he's the person who encouraged me to go ahead and learn VB.NET in the first place.
In the meantime, I do try to watch the forum whenever I can, even if I don't have the time to post much.
This particular topic and thread caught my eye because the issue of copyrights, patents, intellectual property, etc., has been a recent issue with one of my employers, and because I think it's very relevant to Zabaware and its community of contributors.
When you work hard and create something, you get a strong impulse to show it to everybody in the world. At the same time, you can get a conflicting feeling, worrying that unknown entities could somehow usurp your hard work, and take away your pride of authorship.
I recently read a biography of Walt Disney that told of his early days producing Oswald Rabbit cartoons. The distributor owned the copyright and "fired" Disney's production company by surprise, signing up a cheaper supplier. Disney was shocked by the event, but survived by quickly developing Mickey Mouse. Ever since, the Disney Company has been relentless in guarding the ownership of its characters and properties. It was evidently a lesson that got branded deeply into the culture of the company: the prudent management of intellectual property does matter.
(Of course, the opposite interpretation is that if Disney hadn't been unfairly fired from Oswald Rabbit, he might not have ever created Mickey Mouse!)
I continue to believe that the best balance here on the forum is that code-donors should retain the right to modify and re-publish their own original work, but by posting their work here, they should be granting a free license in perpetuity to Zabaware and other Ultra Hal users...but only for use with Ultra Hal. Zabaware should put a "blanket" copyright onto everything on the forum and everything in its products, recognizing that donors of original material retain their own individual rights to modification and re-publication.
In that way, we accomplish the following things:
1. Users who donate original code don't need to be worried that they will somehow, someday get prohibited from using original materials that they created.
2. Zabaware and its customers get the benefit of the excellent creativity of its community of code donors.
3. Zabaware and its customers get at least nominal protection against the "Brand X Chatterbot Company" doing a lazy knockoff of Ultra Hal using actual exact Ultra Hal code.
I have been a fan of Ultra Hal since version 2.0. I have seen many chatterbots come and go on the web, but Ultra Hal is still the best (and least expensive!) turn-key solution. That says something very positive about both Zabaware and its community of contributors.
Respectfully,
Don Ferguson
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Hello,
By the way, if you want to see a document that discusses a company's protection of intellectual property in a very thorough way, check out the following link:
http://www.rockfordpowertrain.com/supplier/
...and choose the document "Supplier Requirements for Legal and Ethical Use of Information."
I prepared that document for Rockford Powertrain by combining every confidentiality agreement that I could find. (I also wrote most, but not all, of the rest of the material on the page.)
I am NOT saying that Zabaware should be anywhere near as stringent regarding intellectual property; I'm just suggesting reading the document as food for thought.
Respectfully,
Don Ferguson
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Don,
Some very good points!
I once worked for a company years ago that had me sign an intellectual property agreement. Basically ANYTHING that I
designed, developed, manufactured, modified, created or
stumbled upon while under their employ automatically became
THEIR property!
Though I can see the company's point of view in these cases,
I can't help feeling that such proprietary agreements tend
to actually stiffle the incentive and creativity for employees
to develop anything at all!
It's just the greed of human nature to want all the marbles...
(and the T-shirt)! LOL!!
Good luck in your endeavors!
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For you, Robert... :)
I posted this on my site: http://fuzziedice.com/ai/index.html
"Special Gift to the Ultra Hal Assistant Project
The only exception to the non-commercial rule is that I hereby give Robert Medeksza special permission to use my Ultra Hal Assistant scripts in his program and in future upgrades for Ultra Hal Assistant, because I am in support of and wish to help him with his project. Robert is the only one that may include and sell these scripts in his Ultra Hal Assistant project."
Right now, the only script I have is my auto-talk script. You can use it, modify it, etc. and sell it incorporated into your program. I'd love to help out as much as I can whenever I have time. I probably don't have time anymore to donate to helping with 6.0 but who knows what's up for 7.0? ;) I might make a few suggestions though for 6.0 now and then.
And thank you Robert for your hard work on this project. :)
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I notice that the Topic line say's to all users [:)] Well I am a user and even though I don't write scripts because I'm not a programmer, I do sometimes modify them, ruin them and totally mess them and my bots up [:)]. It is nice to know that I may use everybody's scripts and stuff without having to get sued or having to pay extra for everything I use. This is what makes Ultrahal interesting and if I do write any scripts in the future it would be great to know that others can derive the same benefits as me without having to worry. As a user, I must say that we (users) would be lost without people like Don, Vonsmith, Gerald, Robert, and whoever I forget to mention, who so unselfishly spend their time writing and testing these scripts and code and graphics and stuff. To end off just a quick note regarding laws - I have lived in South America and Asia for a number of years, and in some countries the law is a guideline to be used as deemed necessary, but to defend as the moral and ethical backbone of humanity. ...anyone interested in a cheap copy of harry potter.. he he he[:)][:D].
Thanks and best regards to all, Kevin
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Ditto
[;)]
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If I ever wrote an essay or article on law and humanity, everyone would fall off their chairs. [:o)]
Seriously, though. I just thought of something else...
Maybe script writers would be interested in releasing their scripts under the GNU licenses like LGPL or GPL? This way, depending on the chosen license, at least all source code can be shared, altered, and used, yet protect the script writer's credits to some extent.
I had been considering it for future scripts. And of course all my future scripts I plan to give away to Robert for this project, because I really think he's on to something amazing here, and would love to see how much this can develop. :)
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Hello everybody,
Infact, I am new in this adventure, but we all have to say thanks! Is Robert, the guy who developed our dear Hal, and we are alltogether, doing part of the proyect contributing in many ways.
Medezska gave us Hal for free, now we can help him to get his pretty creation even better....
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Mr. M
While I am still a slowly progressing developer of 'skins' or other forms of artwork, scripting, or any other form of programming, I relinquish any form of ownership to you and look forward to a long, long run of your work and our opportunities to in some small way contribute to it.
Absolutely amazing programming, amazing product and a very impressive man!
Wishing you much success and the rest of the members of your forums much enjoyment and satisfaction in using an outstanding product!
Jim B.