Is this forum the liars paradox

[Bill DeWitt]

quote:Originally posted by ramccoid

I've noticed that about JWs,

Well, not meaning to disparage them specifically, but many religions find different parts of the Bible inconvenient. My personal religion, to which I can never get anyone to donate, attempts to rectify all of the Bible, observed fact, and reason. That, of course, makes me anathema to most religions....

JW's, like Catholics, Pentacostals, Islamics, Mormons, Adventists, and Branch Davidians etc, have to change or remove or specially explain much of the Bible to have it adhere to their beliefs. I prefer to change my beliefs to adhere to the Bible... and common experience and reason. But to each their own.

However, the JWs and Mormons have special documentary problems. Both of them have had relevations straight from God that didn't quite work out. In the case of the Mormons, the special gold tablets written by an Angel just happen to contain some text which is also contained almost word for word in letters written in Europe a decade earlier. Oops. The JWs made that whole series of predictions of the Second Coming which I think they finally gave up on, as well as having to add a whole tier of Salvation to their cosmogeny once their Church population rose over that magical 144000 number. Uh oh...

But, and this is what's important, I probably have my blind spots as well. There are parts of the Bible that I find hard to rectify. My personal religion, while I believe it's more rational, sounds crazy to anyone who doesn't understand sub-atomic and singularity physics.

I have faith that God is merciful rather than nitpicky.

[ramccoid]

I see it as, if you are going to follow the word then you should stick to the word without deviation. The word is the word and it ceases to be that if it is changed and altered like, as you say, so many religions do to suit their own purposes.

Roy.

[Bill DeWitt]

quote:Originally posted by ramccoid

I see it as, if you are going to follow the word then you should stick to the word without deviation.

Either that or stop calling yourself Christian. Only seems fair. If I was going to be Catholic but not believe in Mass, then I should call myself something other than Catholic.

Or how about I call myself Atheist but redefine it as someone who believes in "A" God... Get it? "A Theist"... Just silly in my book. But no worse than what some people do without blinking.

[ramccoid]

I see myself as a microscopic particle in the vast mystery of the universe. In other words I simply don't know. I'm too insignificant to  be able to see and understand the whole picture.
I don't count out the existance of God because I haven't been around since the beginning to be privileged with that knowledge. So I also, can't deny God for the exact same reason.
Records show that Jesus Christ was a real person who performed extraordinary wonders and all his parables and words are absolutely sound. Maybe he really was God in the flesh our saviour ...

Maybe I'm an Agnostian....hahaha

Roy.

[jackgephart]

You guys are very wrong about the Bible thing with JW's. I have and use 3 copies of the king James version, but the New Translation of the Holy Scriptures Bible that we also use is in modern english and not this thy and thoust crap. God didn't write that stuff, King James and his workers did. Superstition of the name Jehovah made the later translators of the Bible take out His name but the New Translation of the Holy Scriptures put back what the scared translators took out. If you don't believe that the Bible is just like the others please do this for me, The next time a witness comes to your door tell him or her that you don't want to take any literature but you want a Bible so that you can compare for yourself just how "different" they are. If they don't give you one right then but have to come back to give you one, after you get the Bible tell them that you are not interested but just wanted to compare Bibles.
If you want to you can even tell them not to call back on you forever and they won't come back. We want to respect the people we visit. Or are you going to just go on hear-say and stories made up by Bill? I love God and can't stop talking about him, but I will defend him through the word.

[Bill DeWitt]

quote:Originally posted by jackgephart

You guys are very wrong about the Bible thing with JW's.

Well, no, actually we are not. It's well documented, and BTW, I have had a copy of the JW Bible for decades. I studied with the JW's for nearly three years, but they won't let you stay if you dare to disagree with them and I couldn't pretend any longer.

If you really have an open mind, check these verses out and contrast them.

1)John 1:1 (KJV) and John 1:1 (NWT). NWT negates deity of Christ deliberately by adding "a god" to replace "God" when it came to the Word being God.

2) John 8:24, 58 (KJV) to John 8:24, 58 (NWT). NWT negates Christ's deity again by removing the phrases: "I am" (the exclusive name for God) to "I have been"

3) Acts 20:28 (KJV) and Acts 20:28 (NWT). NWT tries to separate God from Christ by adding "Church of God which he has purchased through the blood of His Son" instead of the correct reading: "Church of God which he hath purchased through His own blood".

4) Hebrews 1:6, 8 (KJV) to Hebrews 1:6, 8 (NWT) NWT deliberately changes any notion of deity by removing the word 'worship' and substituting 'do obeisance to' in v6 and instead of having the Father addressing the Son in v8 as "Thy throne, O God...", it has changed the wording to: "God is thy throne".

5) I Timothy 3:16 (KJV) to I Timothy 3:16 (NWT) NWT has removed the word "God" from "God was manifest in the flesh" and substituted: "Who". This is a deliberate attempt to negate deity.

6) I John 5:7 (KJV) to I John 5:7 (NWT) Like many other Bibles, NWT removes the whole verse which states clearly that there are three that bear record in heaven: The Father, The Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one. NWT like the other perversions removes the whole verse and substitutes part of verse 6 and verse 8 into it.

7) Ephesians 3:9 (KJV) to Ephesians 3:9 (NWT) NWT has removed the whole phrase that clearly teaches that the world was created by Jesus Christ, thus trying to remove his role as Creator.

I suspect you will say these are "corrections", and you are welcome to that opinion, but they are purposeful edits nonetheless. The KJV is a more accurate, historical and consistent translation in spite of the fact that you described it as excrement.

I know you have studied your version with diligence but you are not alone. I have studied under many denominations, heritical and orthodox, and also studied several non-Christian religions. I have studied the ancient languages and writing styles. I have worked out the translations of much of the NT for myself and I know pretty much what you believe and how your religion came to advocate those beliefs.

If you believe that your version is more "correct" that's fine with me, but you go further and expect me to agree with you in spite of the easily referenced facts. I won't do that.

If your religion is true, then it will be true no matter what I say. Take comfort in that if you can.

Fortunately, I am certain that God will forgive you for making an innocent mistake, although it's not clear that those who know better but taught you those mistakes anyway are going to avoid the consequences.

[ramccoid]

I totally agree, Bill, the JWs have took some great liberties in their translation of the scriptures.
The whole point of Jesus Christ, was that he was God in the flesh come to earth to speak the truth inperson. He condemned the religious groups of the day, calling them hypocrites and if he was here today would do the same pretty much to all religious organisations and cults.
No one is saying it is wrong to believe, just be careful who is teaching you how and what to believe.
I have great respect and admirence, jackgephart, for your strong faith in the Lord but don't ask me to respect or admire your church and its teachings.

Roy.

[markofkane]

I also have something to say about JW's:

They would come weekly to study with me and my father.But when they said things that made no sense to me, and they was trying to get us to attend meetings at the Kingdom Hall, we wasn't really into that.

They were making it sound like that being a JW was more important than anything else, that nothing else mattered. And that one day, all the people who followed the teachings of the JW's would inherit the Earth, even the dead would rise again.

I respect those that want to be JW's, but it just wasn't for us.

No Christmas, no birthdays, no blood transfusions, etc.

One thing the JW's said that I hope is true: There is no hell, at least hell fire. A person that does not follow the teachings of the JW's will die, and be dead forever. Sounds good to me. If I am dead, I won't know what I'm missing.[]

[ramccoid]

quote:Sounds good to me. If I am dead, I won't know what I'm missing.

The way the world is turning, you wouldn't be missing much ... hahaha

Roy.

[jackgephart]

Bill,

 As I said before, this was fun but we are getting nowhere just name hurling at each others beliefs, so I will take my leave from this thread and I hope you guys will still respect Jack Gephart the person. Thanks for the discussion.

[ramccoid]

Your a cool guy, Jack and I haven't any reason to disrespect you.

All the best my friend,

Roy.

[markofkane]

I wasn't hurling against anyone's beliefs, I was just stating my opinions on religion as a whole. You can believe anything you want, as long as you do not infringe on the rights of others.[]

[Bill DeWitt]

quote:Originally posted by markofkane
You can believe anything you want,

Right, but it's one thing to say, "I believe this" and quite another to say, "The Bible says this". The first cannot be argued against and should be respected, the second is open to verification or disputation.

[Bill DeWitt]

quote:Originally posted by jackgephart
 just name hurling at each others beliefs

I didn't "name hurl" (?) your or anyone's beliefs, and I don't think you insulted mine or anyone else's, but I did dispute your facts. Did you check my quotes? Was I wrong?

Beliefs are beyond debate, but facts should always be checked, analysed and corrected.

[jackgephart]

quote:Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

quote:Originally posted by jackgephart
 just name hurling at each others beliefs

I didn't "name hurl" (?) your or anyone's beliefs, and I don't think you insulted mine or anyone else's, but I did dispute your facts. Did you check my quotes? Was I wrong?

Beliefs are beyond debate, but facts should always be checked, analysed and corrected.

Sorry Bill I've come too far to doubt now. I have been blessed more than I can believe so Homer Simpson can't change my thinking. Sorry.