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Author Topic: Is this forum the liars paradox  (Read 44205 times)

jackgephart

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Is this forum the liars paradox
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2007, 07:07:16 pm »
Bill,
 I've been heavily studying the Bible for 12 years now. You make some good points my friend, but, dare I say, you may be talking like you yourself are saved and going to "heaven". But the Bible plainly says that he who endures to the end will be saved. It also says that you must stay on the narrow path to endure. I would love to think that I could be saved through the gift of life that God gives, but that would be assuming something that hasn't happened yet. We all are a work in progress my friend. But I would love to endure to the end and be granted everlasting life on a Paradise earth that Jesus promised the thief to his right while being impaled.

As far as going to "heaven" this thought never has crossed my mind cause God never meant for us humans to have to go to "heaven". That plan was made after Adam & Eve sinned. The seed? Remember that? Only a set number of worshippers of God, starting with the Apostles, are going to "heaven", 144,000 to be exact. But it isn't going to be a picnic for them, they have to be kings and priest for 1000 years with Jesus. That would be a very hard job even if you were perfect.

But yes I do agree with you very strongly about Christendom and the lies it spread through false teachings. Yes Satan was repelled as well. Right down to the earth, with his demons. That is why shortly after that happened World War 1 broke out. And that is why things are going from bad to worse. I know it's not my job to change people but it is my job to tell them what is going to take place soon. I am just glad that I can talk candidly. Thank you for listening.
 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2007, 07:39:57 pm »
I am not here to dispute your faith. I believe the promise of Christ. You should feel free to believe you can be saved by works. Many people do.


jackgephart

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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2007, 07:53:44 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by Bill DeWitt

I am not here to dispute your faith. I believe the promise of Christ. You should feel free to believe you can be saved by works. Many people do.



Good point my friend. Unsuspectingly you were just part of my works.
Thank you.
 

ramccoid

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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2007, 04:17:47 am »
Didn't Jesus say he who believes in me is saved and the new testament gives a few examples of this. One being the conversation with the two criminals on the cross, when one mocks Jesus and the other says that he is innocent and doesn't deserve to be here but they did. Jesus said through his belief, that day he would be with him in paradise. Another being the woman who believed that she would be healed just by touching his robe and she was and Jesus said you are saved because you believed that he was who he claimed to be, the son of God.
These people wasn't saved by being good or doing any christian acts, one was a criminal dying on the cross and yet would be with Jesus in paradise that very day.
Jesus died for all our sins. So all our evil works are paid for by him or it would be a futile endeavour seeking eternal paradise because we all have sinned and we all are sinners.
Christianity isn't a religion because Jesus condemned religion, it is a faith. A faith in something we have never seen but must believe to acquire the free gift of eternal life. Believe in me and you are saved, said Jesus not do all these things and you are saved. Faith is the power, faith can move mountains.
The Devil's greatest tool is the truth, which he twists and makes flexible. The truth is a rigid thing which can not be bent or it is no longer the absolute truth but we make the truth fit ourselves so we can feel guiltless of our acts and thoughts.
One more point, in the old testament in the land of Nod, when the people where building the tower of Babel. The tower that was to reach heaven and God invoked everyone to speak different languages and the project because of this was abandoned. God said, if man was ever to come together in such union as in Babel, they would become as God. Man finds it hard to love thy neighbour, yet come together as one.

Roy.
 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2007, 09:36:12 am »
Roy, I like to use this story to explain how Salvation by Faith works. It is not intended to accurately describe anything, but to show a comparative situation. It's important not to stretch metaphores too far.

Suppose you had a Great-Aunt which you loved and respected very much. But one day you did something you know she would disapprove of in the strongest terms.

So next time there was a get-together at her house, you avoided it. In fact, you found that moving out of town, changing your phone number and not getting in touch with the whole family made you feel a little better. You knew you could not stand to face their disapproval.

This went on for many years.

Then one day your third cousin twice removed came by for a visit. He told you that Great-Aunt Effie forgives you, that they all missed you and wanted you to show up for her Memorial Day picnic.

Do you believe him or not?

If you are sure he is lying to you, showing up at the picnic would be Hell. The whole time you would have to avoid eye contact, knowing your sin, knowing that she knows, and knowing (perhaps mistakenly) that she is just waiting for a chance to dress you down. Each minute would seem an eternity of torture.

If you believe he is telling the truth, then the picnic will be like heaven. It would be paradise to re-establish your affection for her and accept her forgiveness. All your family would be together again and you could move forward from there. A good time would be had by all.

I believe that the smallest of sins is too much for God. Nothing short of pure spottless perfection will do. Passing irritation at your backdoor neighbor for mowing the lawn too early on a Saturday morning spoils that purity as much as being a mass murderer. Just as any number is not infinity, any sin is not innocence. We cannot be sinless enough to approach God. Unless He forgives us.

I believe that God forgives all sin, past, present and future. All He asks is that we accept that forgiveness.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


ramccoid

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« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2007, 11:36:59 am »
Brilliantly said, Bill and I totally and utterly agree with your fine explaination.

Roy.
 

Carl2

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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2007, 04:40:10 pm »
I'd go along with Milton's Paradise Lost, he seems to have done his research and presented a resonable explination.  Easy to find on the internet, I've read quite a bit of it, much better than the watered down version I'd read in school.
Carl2
 

Art

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« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2007, 07:44:17 pm »
Bill,

Again, well stated and nice analogy.
In the world of AI it's the thought that counts!

- Art -

jackgephart

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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2007, 11:53:07 am »
I got one question for you all and I want to make you think about this before you answer so you can be truthful with yourselves. Did God's first purpose for the earth change, or did it just get delayed? His first purpose was for humans to be perfect and live on the earth forever and make the whole earth like that of Eden. The Devil tried to stop that but he can't change what is to take place.
Revelations 12-21 speak of what will soon take place in heaven and on earth, so read this with an open mind and try to weed out the false teachings that are so prevelent, like hellfire, salvation through belief in Christ alone, and the rapture. The Devil wants us to believe lies because that will put us blindly on his side at the end of this system. Please my friends, weigh these traditions and doctrines that are in most religions and then read the Gospels and see if it is the same. I am not going to post here again because I don't want you all to get mad at me and disrespect me for what I am telling you. But please if nothing else take this post to heart and look at the religions of today how they are just like what was described in the Bible about the tower of Babel, God is going to stop them too.
 

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2007, 01:39:42 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by jackgephart
His first purpose was for humans to be perfect and live on the earth forever and make the whole earth like that of Eden.


I didn't know that this was His primary purpose. It's good that you told us because it is not stated in the Bible.

Adding to or subtracting from the Scriptures is the historically accepted way to correct the religion of Christ. You should write a new New Testament, they're very popular now-a-days.


onthecuttingedge2005

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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2007, 02:20:08 pm »
There are:

1. Less than average or average minds due to more mental defects(very mild to severe retardation).

2. Logical geniuses(less mental defects).

3. Creative geniuses(less mental defects).

4. Combined logical and creative geniuses(even lessor mental defects).

then there are people that were born with retardation but had special abilities like geniuses
that could do math faster than a computer or even count all the bricks making up a building in a couple of seconds and some could do many other things that seemed so amazing.

Geniuses were not just born yesterday, geniuses have
Been around for thousands and thousands of years since the dawn of mankind even the animal kingdom and before mankind.

Even in the days of the caveman, geniuses have walked the Earth and many thousands of them, men and women with 'potential' I.Q's approaching 200 just like today(for that era) but did not have the ability to totally utilize the resources through manufacturing, it was a genius
Who created the arrowhead and the mechanism to shoot it to kill for meat to feed a family or a tribe.

Even chimpanzees have been discovered to use rocks and clubs to kill or defend, chimpanzees have also been discovered in central America to stalk and ambush deer for meat, taking the kill up into the trees to eat of its flesh(National Geographics).

Koko, a domesticated gorilla(now dead) was trained to learn human sign language, the animal trainer and people could have conversations with this primitive beast, Koko was asked one day, how come she liked to paint, Koko said, I am painting my 'dreams', Koko was asked, do you have bad dreams, Koko replied, I have 'nightmares', I watched this on the discovery channel and it severely amazed me that just communication was tapping us into the minds of 'Lessor Man'.

This was amazing, Koko was like watching 'planet of the apes', she was that smart, I think at the time that I had discovered Koko she had a sign language vocabulary of 3000 known words which is about average for humans, some humans don't even use that much of the human language through out life.

To me: the afterworld of 'any kind' was created in the minds of creative geniuses long ago.

since when have agnostics driven a crusade or a jihad and the killing of mass populations or even genocide?

agnostics have been the least of anyones problems on this planet.

Passive to assertive agnostics, I can't speak for the aggressors.
for the most part, agnostics just want to get along because we believe life is prescious and it will be the only time you have to fullfill yourself of what life has to offer.
for which I am an 'assertive' agnostic.

I tend to tip more into natural selection and evolutionary mutation, not all species are so lucky.

Good - o = God
evil + D = Devil

Sincerely Agnostic
Jerry[8D]
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 05:58:46 am by onthecuttingedge2005 »

Bill DeWitt

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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2007, 03:01:26 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by onthecuttingedge2005
we believe life is prescious and it will be the only time you have to fullfill yourself of what life has to offer.


A true "capital 'A'" Agnostic doesn't believe that. They admit that they don't know if there is an afterlife or not. That contains the 50% possiblity that there is an afterlife. Usually it's Atheists who believe without evidence that there is no afterlife.

I am technically an agnostic. I don't know if there is a God nor exactly what any putative God wants, but I am always trying to reason it out. I don't dismiss it because I don't know, and I respect those who are sure one way or the other - if they are honest.

I have my beliefs based upon what I have experienced and what I have reasoned out from that, but I don't know anything except what I have experienced within myself. Oddly, I have not started any wars over my beliefs.

Many Atheists and Theists are Agnostic. Most are not, but those who think about their religion, whether Theistic or not, and are honest with themselves, will admit that they do not know - by objective evidence - most of what they believe. Nothing wrong with that, subjective evidence has it's place.

As for wars etc, they are usually not started by religions or the lack of them. They are usually started by sociopaths who want power, often by using religous people as a weapon to gain that power, but more often by using something else.


ramccoid

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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2007, 03:20:44 pm »
quote:
Good - o = God
evil + D = Devil


Maybe it's:

God + O = Good
Devil - D = evil

makes it sound a lot different.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 03:21:40 pm by ramccoid »
 

onthecuttingedge2005

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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2007, 05:16:27 pm »
Bows to the forum gods!

sorry about the capital A in agnostics, it never occured to me that it would make a difference, even I am not perfect though at some times my mind escapes me because I know I have mental defects and there is no such thing as a perfect being on this planet.

you guys are great, thanks for letting me speak my mind.

Jerry[8D]

ramccoid

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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2007, 05:26:56 pm »
nice one Jerry, all is forgiven .... hahahahaha