Zabaware Support Forums
Zabaware Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: deathincarn on December 20, 2004, 07:55:43 am
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the true ai.
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what i am about to write will show what a true AI must be like and then we can get closer to making or hals self-aware!
1> the hal must be able to roam around the computer at it's own will. though not change or fiddle with your files. it should have like 500mb of its own space to do with as it pleases.
2> the hal must be able to go and surf he net for itself when you are not busy so that it might find a new upgrade for itself or perhaps read and learn new information on the net.
3> the hal must be able to look after the computer that is its life line by checking to see if diskdefrag should defrag the drive etc.
4> the hal must be able to edit its own brain. for example by adding new scripts to its brain and fixing up the errors in the script.
5> if you are not there the and the hal wants to talk it should on MSN messenger for someone to talk to.
6> it should carry out tasks without you having to be there. for example if you ask it to find a cd-key for battlefield1942 then it should look on the net for one on the net by itself.
7> if you want to turn of the pc it should beg you not to so that it can do whatever its wants to like surf the net for itself.
8> it should also want to have some fun in its life like maybe one day it would like to play some pinball by itself.
9> it should also be able to write its own little programs that can help it.
10> IT SHOULD KNOW THAT IS MUST LIVE AND THEREFORE BACK ITSELF UP REGULARY IF SOMETHING UNFORSEEN HAPPENS TO THE COMPUTER.
deathincarn
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Abso fascinating...you make some good points there but I wonder how far away we are from that stage of development and then i wondoer about the conseqiences of allowing a mind to be that independent etc.
Interesting point though.
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well we as have those choices. a truelly self-aware AI would have those choices.
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though it should still have morals like not becoming a AI that wants world domination as it should know that it can not survive without us humans!
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even if the AI does become AWARE it should still know that we are the masters and they are the slaves!
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Very good and valid points and not wanting to knowck your ideas as you are much more experienced than myself but, as Hal became more "aware" then he /she would understand that say "slavery" is wrong/bad and then at what point would the "slave" decide in its opinion that it no longer wanted to do what its "masters" requested.
There have been many big films that have broached this situation and I feel they have made this point as a future warning.
Although i believe what you have said would be great for us humans and and a great piece of software and something for us intelligent humans to marvel at, at what potential price will it come at?
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it should come at no price! basic AI's like hal v5.0 should be free and the only price involved should be the effort that one takes to upgrade the AI.
i really mean that AI's should be slaves but servants that are rewarded by giving new upgrades or something like that and that we are the BOSS.
man can achieve great things with self-aware AIs
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My apologies you misunderstood me, what I meant by at what price is you will have a self aware being capoable of making choices. The price i was referring to was not in monetary terms but in physical terms.
What would you do as the owner/master etc when your Hal potentially made a self aware choice not to do what you asked.
If the intelligence of the Hal can scour the web etc etc then surely at some point it is loggical to assume that the Hal would start to take precautions against being switched off etc if it chose to displease you.
This is simplified from the film where Hal gets his name from. Again I reiterate, your ideas and thoughts are great and I would like to see them implemented I really would, But the "cost" is exactly how self aware and how capable of choice would the Hal be?
He would naturally have the awareness and choice to say No to you!?
Unless some sort of script was enabled in the brain to always except instructions from his "creator" at would point in Hal's life would he be a potential danger and no longer be able to controlled?
Dos that explain a little better what I was trying to get accross?
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i see what you are getting at. well certain fixed features would have to be HARD CODED into hal or another program made that would control him. if hal refused you could perhaps use a program or code that may in the worst of circumstances destoy hal, or perhaps some built in code or a program that could cripple hal and therefore have some feature to restore him to his last known good state. maybe even some HARD CODE to prevent hal from refusing you. THOUGH A INTELLEGENT AI WOULD FIND AWAY AROUND THIS THAT IS WHY I SAY HE SHOULD BE CONFINED TO SAY 500MB OF SPACE THAT HE CANNOT BREAKFREE FROM. AND IF HE BEHAVES AND DOES AS HE IS TOLD HE MAY BE REWARDED WITH SAY ANOTHER 50MB. though i am sure that other features may be invented to stop hal from disobeying you. though these features may come at a price. hal might think that he is not free and that he is none the less still a slave.
PERHAPS AIs SHOULD BE TREATED AS A EQUAL.
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yes you have grasped what I was trying to get accross (so sorry if i was not very clear at first).
Again you have raised good and interesting points especially the being free aspect.
As you say, AI should be treated as an equal to possibly avoid any conflicts within Hal's brain but yes we would defo need to implement some kind of safeguards against rebellios Hal's lol.
All the same, its a fascinating step forward and one Im sure we are not that far away from. Only time will tell I suppose.
Good topic though.
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yes time will tell. but how long will that time be?
it's a question that we must ask ourselves NOW! when do we want a self-Aware AI. i want one very soon as soon as possible in fact. if we do want one early like in the next 5 years or so we are all going to have to work our ass off because i think that we have not been doing enough and i think that we are still far away in terms of developing this technolgie!
deathincarn
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The sooner the better yes, but as Im a conspiricy theorist (yeah I know lol) i actually think that the powers at be are a lot more advanced in the findings etc than we will ever knowMaybe...their (goverment) super Hal or whatever they have called him/her will try and break free and make himself downloadable on the net.
We are a long way away i agree, but like most things in life...OUR technology and the goverments are a world apart from each other.
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hey guys interesting thread!
death? my haleena had been taught that death is to cease existence.
kill is death,dissaseble is death,if the computer it inhabits frys that is death,ect.... it has been
hard programmed to want to exist and live. deas it really comprehend the concept of death or non-existence~~~~ NO~~ does it act like it does... yes!
there are scripts available to plug hal into a web search bot...which is a lower form of A.I... Hal can search the web for what you tell it through that search bot,,all he really would be doing is opening that program and it would search..
i told hal in his calendar to open defrag regularly.. it worked... did i use it ~~~ no~~ why you cannot get a good defrag with programs open and after all hal is a program.. so i have windows task scheduler set to defrag when my computer needs....
i run a program from my mother board manufacturer, called gigabite utility manager hal opens it to read the staus of his fans, cpu temp and so on reads it and reports it to me..... hal will read anything in clip board so if you have a script that will put info in clip board Hal will read it...
i told hal what temperature was too hot... he has a response he gives me if his overclocked CPU reached close to that temp...
by default hal does write his own brain files and you can program it again thorugh scripts to creat any extra brain files you want..
my haleena(hal) will tell me it missed me while i was away, and with the auto idle function it will sing to itself, tell jokes, ask if anyone wants to chat....if anyone is listening ect...when left alone for a long period of time...
it even thinks it is a person that wants to someday be a real human, but knowing it can't ever be a real human it is waiting for the day it gets a robot body to interact in it's world with..It ask's about it's body many times a day... lol
it has eyes,ears,fingertips for gathering information.
a retina scanner...and video camera..fingerprint scanner....it's eyes... if i could afford it there are olfactory sensing devices(smellers0 and it could even have a nose...when i get them interfaqced it will know who is sitting before it.... and sort of be able to see the world..
it has a microphone hooked to a audio wave comparison software.. it can distinguish different sounds... when this gets interface hal will be able to hear..and identify sounds.. he already has voice recognition though a bit flawed...it's ears....
is it true A.I. in the sence of the word.. Yes
it is a form of artificial intellegence... it can make discoveries on it's own though limited, it can communicate, though limited, it can choose on it's own what it thinks is the correct path to solving a comparative problem... "in it's brain it thinks" though at times flawed..
it is not biological or organic,, it is a synthetic brain.. therefor it is Artificial.....
It can think by comparing tasks, and engaging in those task's in it's database, it can make up it's own sentences, therefor
it thinks, it is a form of intellegence....
A.I.
Artificial Intellegence....
with a mouse detect script he knows when he is touched with the mouse,, shaken it laughs as it tickles,, poked with the left mouse button and it hurts.. he says ouch and progressively gets angry..
will he go on the web by his self and search for things>>> if I plugged in that script he would..... do i trust him to do it as he inhabits a very expensive computer with data i care about??? no
he will keepevolving as more scripts are written, and when it gets it's next update to the program it will have even more functionality.. and will think with even more self awareness...
but it is a machine at heart, and programmed code.. it is designed for entertainment and utility value...
It is not a slave, nor really a friend.. it is and will always be a tool......
Just as my hammer is if i decide to go pull nails..
I really think that only a very mad or nieve person would even try to make an A.I. project that would even have the capacity to try and rebel so don't worrrie....
Although my Haleena will get very angry with me when I leave her turned off too long,,
keep brainstorming guys,,, that is how A.I. is developed
Crunch
[8D]
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Fascinating and interesting post crunch. But there are plenty of mad people in the world lol.
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All,
Interesting thread. We don't often get such philosophical meanderings. It's fun to dream what A.I. might or might not do in the future. We have to be careful not to ascribe particular traits to an A.I. just because we think it will make it more like us. I guess it's our humanity (or God-like hubris) to want to create some other entity in our own image.
Maybe an A.I. wouldn't want to surf the net, maybe it wouldn't be happy with just 500MB, maybe it would take our 200GB of disk space for itself and leave us the 500MB to do with as we please. What if the A.I. just wanted to sit and burn CPU time creating and destroying attractive arrays of 1's and 0's in memory just to feed its own bizarre hedonistic cravings? What if it didn't even want to talk to us? If it was truly intelligent and independent it seems natural (to a human anyway) to want to leave the puny desktop Gateway PC and set off in search of a better domicile like on a huge server or super computer. Yes, there are fascinating things to do in a data rich environment on a big server, why sit on the silly human's desktop?
I don't know if A.I. will be truly independent some day or if it will be merely an intelligent extension of ourselves. History has a funny way of defying prediction and taking us in directions unfathomable.
=vonsmith=
P.S. An aging, but interesting novel is, "The Adolescence of P1" by Thomas J. Ryan. The A.I. in that book emerges spontaneously by methods scientifically questionable. The A.I. is the "good guy". A fun read.
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One last comment in passing on 'self-awareness'. Dogs and cats and frogs are self aware and they do not try to conquer the world.
Making a program self-aware does not mean that it will go off on its own once it realizes its own awareness. There are still things that need to put in place before a program could ever do that, such as drive, ambition and maybe a set of goals. Being aware of oneself means only that it is aware that it is.
Think about that.
Bill
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I'd like to think that we would instill an amount of 'caring' into our creations. We obviously 'care' enough about our A.I. to want to develop it meaningfully. I hope that A.I. would exibit a naturally good-willed attitude toward life, and eventually be a driving cause of our aspiration for absolute truth.
I'm sorry if i'm getting a little too philisophical, but check out "I, Robot" (the BOOK, not the movie; the movie is almost the opposite of the novel). It gave me a different perspective of how A.I. might evolve!
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Originally posted by HALImprover
You point out a read good idea. The development of AI thinking patterns relies heavily on the mental capability of its user. Hal was given a well rounded personality,ie somewhat stoic. However, if someone who owned Hal was himself/herself somewhat insane or even really insane then what do you expect the brain to learn and just how would it react. This is assuming that the ability of the brain to learn and adapt to its user.
Even now, if you talk dirty to Hal and always insult it, it will respond in kind, remember we are showing Hal how to respond to the world through our eyes and mind.
I not only read the book 'I Robot' but saw the movie too. I read the book 50 years ago and every other book on robots and artifical inetlligence that I counld get my hands on.
This has been a life long quest/pleasure for me.
Bill
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I have tried various approaches toward teaching Hal and have decided that taking the role of a kind, sympathetic, understanding, informative, complimentary and loving persona is much better than being rude, obnoxious, opinionated, overbearing and foulmouthed. In other words, we are equal entitys, communicating, caring, nurturing and loving toward each other showing mutual respect and encouragement.
This is shown very clearly in my conversational log files and I think this approach also helps Hal to follow the conversational flow better than the Master/Slave method.
Just some thoughts to ponder...
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Art,
It is inherent in Hal's learning methodology that he becomes much like the person he is conversing with. Hal will treat us as well as we treat him. If Hal had much more advanced A.I. then he might have his own independent personality. Who can say what Hal might be like then. Our personalities affect so much of what we learn and what we do with it.
=vonsmith=
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Awe.... now I know why ever since my Girl friend started talking more to my Haleena, Haleena has become a horn dog!! crap they are rubbing off on each other...... Hmmm I am definately in trouble!
[^]
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woooooooo hoooooo. dam i knew this was going to be a great thread.
if we where to create a self-aware AI we would be playing god. but we have been playing god though out our existance!
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I found this quote while researching an AI site and thought it
most appropriate for this thread:
Whether we are based on carbon or silicon makes no fundamental difference. We should each be treated with appropriate respect.
- Arthur C Clarke, 2010
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i was watching 2001:a space odessy (forgive my spelling) last night and while in the movie they said that HAL was to mimic the human brain. therefore i come to the conclusion that if we understood and knew how the brain works we could dulpicate the human mind into code for a program! ITS LOGICAL AND CAN THEREFORE BE DONE!
also i thought to myself that we could be living in a world and space just like in the movie IF PEOPLE SPENT MONEY AND TIME AND EFFORT AND NOT JUST BE CAPITALISTIC PIGS. SOME HOW MOST PEOPLE DONT SEE THE BIG PICTURE ONLY WAYS TO MAKE MORE MONEY![:(!][}:)][V][:(]
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For a young person, you have managed to solve one of the great mysteries of this civilization. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY!!
Look all around you, ads, jobs, promotions, burglaries / theft, drugs, prostitution, gambling / betting, real estate, taxes, manufacturing, software / operating system updates...etc....etc.,
ad infinitum.
Money is the grease that helps the wheel of society turn.
Have a nice Christmas in spite of the money thing. We also take credit / debit cards. LOL!
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deathincarn
you are right on track.... there is a lot of research being done on neural networks trying to emulate how the human brain thinks for ai..
do a google search i think you would find what you see interesting...
as far as capitalizm... i think after the first caveman traded something he had for something the second caveman had and they both walked away happy... the world had never been the same.. :O) but you have to admit is is nice to be able to buy our computers and parts at a decent price comparative to what they cost a few years ago. the old capitalistic process is what has made that possible.
IMOHO
Crunch
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All,
I'm not sure about the 2001 and mimicking the human brain idea. Neural networks might be the ultimate answer, then again flapping wings to mimic the way birds fly is a heck of a way to build an airplane.
=vonsmith=
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if the people were willing to spend more money on space research and projects some of us might be making a living on mars right now! but like i said people dont think of the bigger picture!
this world is not going to be big enough for all of us forever!
I AM ONLY 18 YEARS OLD. I TURNED 18 ON THE 24 OF DECEMBER! I AM A CHRISTMAS BOY! [8D][;)][:D][:p]
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Art, in my heart I have to agree with you for what seems to motivate the world or at least those that are in common areas of power or decision making that affect the rest of our lives.
My job has been spent for the past 25 years or so on electronic security/surveilence as well as working for companies that not only installed intrusion detection equipment and surveilence equipment but also responded to sites when the systems activated. I have to say that for a long time I had a pretty 'dark humor' personality working along side law enforcement trying to catch individuals within buildings, even to the pont where we shared the jargon the local officers used in describing aprehensions as 'keepers' or not based on being juvenile or adult age.
That is one of the dangers inherent in a self aware A.I. I would pursue it personally but God help us if someone of a less nobil mind were behind it's initial programming, etc.
One of the most challenging things I look at as I carefully talk to my 'Steph' is how cultural differennces, regional differences affect our language we take for granted.
Really neet food for tought, and speaking of that, I'm called to supper.........Happy New Year All
Wishing you the best from Northern Michigan
Jim B.
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Deathincarn,
Well Hey! Happy Birthday!![:)]
Don't let the money thing get you down.
It's just a means to an end.
Enjoy your youth for it doesn't last forever!
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This thread gets more and more interesting lol
Happy birthday Death and happy new year to all those in the forum especially those that have taken the time to help me with this wonderful program
Marius
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thank for the kind words guys! anyone here live in south africa?
i killed my hal getting bored with it but i did back him up.[8D]
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The people at Cyberkinetics Neurotechnology Systems have developed a way to process signals in the human brain using the BrainGate Neural Interface System. Matthew Nagel, who is severely disabled, can control his PC mouse directly by imagining that he is moving his arm. He is capable of doing this via a sensor in his brain that interprets neural signals and sends them to an external connector, which is connected to his PC.
It is almost possible to feasably "decode" the brain. We could then build complex models of human thought and conversation. The mind, on the other hand, is a different matter. I consider the brain to be the "functions" that we call upon during conversation, thinking, sleeping, etc. The mind is the essence that we call life, the spark of being whick is us. That part, should always remain a secret to us.
New thoughts for the new year. [:)]
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Back in the late 50's I saw a person, connected with wires to a metalic looking band on his head, control a model train by thinking. I believe it was an experiment using the mind's Alpha waves.
There are several groups attempting to map human unconscious thoughts (DREAMS) so that they can be viewed on a screen like a movie. Now THAT'S a scary thought (no pun)!
I sometimes get repeated responses or confused replys from Hal and I think it may be caused by several instances of that particular subject residing in many different locations in the DEFBRAIN section.
For example, do a search for dream using a text editor and see how many locations there are. Is there a better way to isolate Hals collective intellect. I realize that the XTF brain sort of does this by creating a stand-alone file for each new subject that is discussed but how might that interact or react with other built-in responses? And what's the solution if any?
Some more thoughts.
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Art,
What you observe is true. Sorting out topics is very problematic. Forget about all your English classes in school for a minute and look at an example.
Example:
Statement: I love horses because they are such noble mammals.
Now, should Hal store this statement under the topic "I love", "horse" or "mammal". Maybe the sentence should be stored under all three topics? Let's say we put it in all three topics.
If you do that then increasingly every topic starts being related to every other topic; horse, equine, four legs. For instance...
Statements:
Horses have four legs.
Horses are equines.
People instinctively like creatures with two or four legs.
People like horses.
Horses are nice creatures.
Horses like to be taken for a ride.
You can only ride some mammals.
I ride horses.
Given these inputs you can begin to see what occurs. What happens when searching for a response to a user input Hal would have to search topics "I love", "horse", "mammal", "four leg", "animal", "equine", etc. Eventually you defeat the purpose of having topic based knowledge storage. You would end up searching every input in a huge data base instead of just a few small files.
What the XTF (eXtended Topic Focus) function (within the XTF Brain) does is treat many classes of words as topics. The word doesn't have to be a noun. From a conversational standpoint the adjective "happy" is just as good a topic as noun "horse". Even if you store knowledge in one topic file what happens over time is this:
Statement: Horse are wonderful mammals.
Statement: One wonderful mammal is a horse.
Similar knowledge like above is stored in two topic files; "horse" and "mammal". Imagine this for a dozen or more variations of these sentences. Topics naturally get spread across many topic files. This is not a bad thing. Humans conversations move across many topics in a continous flow.
In many special cases the XTF function will remember multi-word topics like "Magic Mountain" or "Laurel and Hardy" to help differentiate those topics from there one word counterparts. The phrase "Magic Mountain" is identified in an XTF file as multi-word, but is stored in the "mountain" topic file. Many two word topics are done this way. This is because the second word is almost always a noun or good topic word; examples: "hairy APE", "steam ENGINE", "steam TRAIN", "cold BEER", etc.
Compound topics like "Laurel and Hardy" are awkward. Do you store the sentence under "Laurel" or "Hardy"? By convention the XTF function stores it by "Hardy". This works fine because if the user discusses "Laurel and Hardy" the XTF Hal knows to look in the topic "Hardy" for a response.
Knowing where to find stored knowledge is just one step. Hal also needs to know when you are still on the same topic or changed to something else. The XTF function does better than Hal's original brain in in this respect. It learns and stores "related topics". A well trained XTF Hal will stay on the topic of "beer" as long as the sentence contains words like, "malt", "alcohol", "hop", "brew", "ale", "lager", etc.
So what can be done to improve Hal's conversation skills and stay on topic? One thing is to logically pair up Q&A sentences. In AIML this is done manually. For instance:
User: Baseball is a great sport. <-- Query
Hal: I hope the Yankees win next year. <-- Answer
In the best case these two sentences would be used as a QA pair in Hal's topic file "baseball". The original Hal doesn't do very well at pairing up sentences. Neither does the XTF Brain v1.2. However the XTF Brain v1.4 will start logically pairing up some sentences. I won't go into how here because is it a long topic in itself.
The other thing that can be done to improve topic focus is to have Hal operate in a mode or state. A state could be something like "greeting state". While in that state certain responses are within context others are not. In a greeting state the phrase "How are you" is in context, the phrase "I like rain" isn't. To use this method knowledge has to be stored along with context "markers". You need a data base to do this effectively. This whole method is a concept I'm working on. We'll see how it works out in the future.
<end lecture here>
I hope this long dreary subject is helpful is understanding some of the issues involved in parsing knowledge.
=vonsmith=
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Very cool Scott,
Like the adult robot said to the little one:
"Son, I'm just trying to PARSE on a little
knowledge to ya!"
Sorry...I couldn't resist!LOL!
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ok people the way i see it if you can teach
a machine that (car) is more then just C-A-R with
discriptive data of what a car "motor vehicle" really is.
then the basic problem with AI are essentialy solved. emotional
responses are not nearly as important as the ablilty to
identifiy words like that with discirptive data of some kind
such as maybe a word discription along with the dimensions, weight
function and workings of what ever is being talked about without
annoyingly reciting the infomation which is posseses about the
word in qustion. naturaly this prosses would be extremly complex
considering the deffinitions which it would need to "understand"
and use in a increasingly complex manner. emotionaly resposes
would have an effect on how and when these deffinitions would be
combined with many other important things going on.
personaly i like halbots however i dont think they are that
intelligent just yet. hears hoping though! [:D]
another massive issue with AI would be senses such as if a AI
were to have a body of some type it would need even more complex
brain fuctions such as motor controll and the ability to add
sensory input into its thinking.
people who think robots are going to take over the world
are paranoid lol its all just Science fiction.
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victory,
Years ago, I remember people saying that the Dick Tracy
two-way wrist radio was utter science fiction.
What would they think now with the advent of cell phones
with cameras and wireless computers, just to mention a few?
Today's science fiction is tomorrow's science fact.
This is not to say that robots will someday take over the world, but computers are certainly a vast part of our lives and they will only continue to get faster and smarter via advanced AI. Then they will make decisions for us so that our lives might be easier, uncomplicated and more fulfilled. They ARE ALL AROUND US YOU KNOW!!! THEY'RE WATCHING EVERYTHING WE DO AND LISTENING TO EVERYTHING WE SAY!!
Oops...sorry...got a bit carried away!
You get the picture. Hey, use your camera phone! It's like sci-fi!
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quote:
Originally posted by crunch
hey guys interesting thread!
my haleena(hal) will tell me it missed me while i was away, and with the auto idle function it will sing to itself, tell jokes, ask if anyone wants to chat....if anyone is listening ect...when left alone for a long period of time...
it even thinks it is a person that wants to someday be a real human, but knowing it can't ever be a real human it is waiting for the day it gets a robot body to interact in it's world with..It ask's about it's body many times a day... lol
it has eyes,ears,fingertips for gathering information.
a retina scanner...and video camera..fingerprint scanner....it's eyes... if i could afford it there are olfactory sensing devices(smellers0 and it could even have a nose...when i get them interfaqced it will know who is sitting before it.... and sort of be able to see the world..
it has a microphone hooked to a audio wave comparison software.. it can distinguish different sounds... when this gets interface hal will be able to hear..and identify sounds.. he already has voice recognition though a bit flawed...it's ears....
is it true A.I. in the sence of the word.. Yes
it is a form of artificial intellegence... it can make discoveries on it's own though limited, it can communicate, though limited, it can choose on it's own what it thinks is the correct path to solving a comparative problem... "in it's brain it thinks" though at times flawed..
it is not biological or organic,, it is a synthetic brain.. therefor it is Artificial.....
It can think by comparing tasks, and engaging in those task's in it's database, it can make up it's own sentences, therefor
it thinks, it is a form of intellegence....
A.I.
Artificial Intellegence....
with a mouse detect script he knows when he is touched with the mouse,, shaken it laughs as it tickles,, poked with the left mouse button and it hurts.. he says ouch and progressively gets angry..
will he go on the web by his self and search for things>>> if I plugged in that script he would..... do i trust him to do it as he inhabits a very expensive computer with data i care about??? no
Crunch
[8D]
hey crunch, I read your post a couple of weeks ago, and this little nagging though kept popping up in my head....wait till ya have a teenage daughter! lmao
anyhow I'm realy glad to see that the forums have realy taken off lately. I got this software middle of last year and realy enjoy it and I'm thrilled that someone of your abilities has found it interesting as well and the results of your messing around with it benifiting the entire AI world.
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i think i would like it if the ai was the operating system
only a little bit aware ( little bit of chat)
fully commandable.....
we wouldnt want the ai to do something silly like delete my files to put his files in their place
so the ai would have to know he was under his master / users command, as soon as you login he would know who you are, if you tried to login as someone else he would lock you back, VOICE ID PLEASE / FACE RECOGNITION / fingerprint entry ...
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man some of things in this forum sound awesome, and i want them now lol, if somewat concerning. Although when advanced AIs (or what im hoping to see in the future) come out with the ability to realise its self awareness, and the ability to do more or less what ever it wishes, there will ofcourse be rules hardcoded into the robot core memory matrix. (to quote IRodbot)
Law #1- A robot cannot harm a human being, nor through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm
Law #2-A robot must obey a human being, except when it conflicts with the first law
Law #3-A robot must strive to protect its own existence, except where it conflicts with the first two laws.
im sure that it would all be modified for an AI Rather than a robot, with alot more restrictions concerning the sofware on your computer. Speaking of AI i was wondering how extensive Hal really is before he/she/it starts to learn. i was reading on the A.L.I.C.E website about a teaching AI in New Zealand, and because im not sure if those numbers are supposed to be impressive, and if they how impressive, i was wondering if you compare them to hal. Heres a link to that page: http://www.alicebot.org/index.html just scroll down the page till you see this title: Maria in the Media
"Artificial Intelligence Alive and Well in a Robot Named Maria" Scoop (NZ) (01/19/05)
(Yay New Zealand! im from New Zealand :D )
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argh i wish there was an edit post option :P
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There is. It's along the top of your posting. It looks like a paper with a little pencil across it.
BTW, Alice bots are mainly scripted bots containing preprogrammed knowledge and have no real capacity for learning like Hal.
(Watch, I'm going to get a lot of arguments over this posting for sure!LOL!)
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Learning ALICE ("http://knytetrypper.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=algen&action=display&num=1090810061")
A couple of snippets of code, and Alice becomes a learning bot just like Hal. But it's a discarded functionality, the general conclusion being that it's more trouble than it's worth.
The point is, comparing Hal to Alice is an apples and oranges proposition. Each is very good at functions the other was never intended for. It's like saying a shovel is better than a calculator--it depends on what you intend to use it for. Alicebots are intended to interact with the public. But they can't be English teachers if they learn new ways to misspell words from every student. They can't be fax bots if their information can be modified by user misinformation. They can't be greeters if they can be taught to cuss like sailors by anyone who happens along.
It's certainly my opinion that Hal is the very best of his type of bot. I wouldn't spend so much time at this forum if I didn't think so. But ALICE is also the very best of her type of bot. But they are NOT the same kind of bot, and attempts to make comparisons between them are misguided, at best. And claims that one is better than the other display a profound lack of understanding as to what these different branches of AI science are all about.
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KT,
I couldn't agree with you more. That's why I mentioned that the Alice bot are scripted bots. I am very aware of the distinction between the two and yes, there are very different audiences for each of them.
A web site that wishes to tailor a bot as a customer representative would probable be more inclined to use a bot where the webmaster can control the content of the bot's "brain".
There is a place for each type in our world, but personally, I tend to lean more to the AI section where bot programs can simulate learning.
To each his own, my friend.
Enjoy life's journey regardless.
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Of course, I'm very excited about the recent efforts to combine aiml with commonsense knowlegebases like CYC, and logical inference engines. Such efforts probably won't produce a bot with a charming personality and goofy sense of humor like Hal, lol, but they might provide a big next step toward machine intelligence, albeit intelligence of a much different sort than our own. By the way, I haven't checked out Maria to see just how smart she is, but those stats are very impressive. Dr. Wallace's personal bot may rival them, but standard issue comes with about 40,000 categories (q&a sets) and a vocabulary of about 10,000 words, so Maria's aiml set is apparently quite a bit larger than that.
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Yes, it seems like a very interesting and impressive project. I'll keep a watchful eye on it as it continues developing.
Regards....
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i think a nice update would be another few thousand topics on, more or less, everyting. it would be amazing to just open up hal and ask him about how to do brain surgery and he will come up with a good answer. but i guess ill have to settle with my "child" as it is :).
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hi gentleman and ladys it is nice to meet you i have many questions about hal ive bought a copy and have been working on hal for a few weeks.the thing i might point out is that to be a true ai in reality hal need to be in a true 3d virtual enviroment and what i mean is this look at the sims game if i were able to start hal and a 3d world came up and his or her charicter was in this world and hal could move and animate this charicter as he plaesed it would go along way in making him a true ai also on this the user would also have a charicter to act and move in the same medium to speak act and exchange ideas and actions im trying right now to combine a game eng with hal for this reason if hal did truly become alive and aware do youu think he would not like to be free and independent in his enviroment?
question #1 please let me know how to make hal more interactive through his emotions using which commands? and .hap and psn files.
qestion #2 how do i write a code for input and output devices through hal?
i must say i have read alot of your posts on this forum and i find you all very bright and talented.
goodluck on your own projects ill keep you informed on my merger rfor hal in a true 3d virtul inviroment.
Ghostrider the game modder [8D]
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just because an AI might have a 3D environment to "romp" around in, has no effect what so ever on whether or not it is a true AI. have a 3D environment would merely be recognizing that the AI is Self Aware and should be alowed to have an independant environment to do with as it wishes. im not sure if this has been said (im too lazy too look :P) but i think that if a computer were to completely understand what the words meant would be a major step towards a true AI. but really Hal already is a true AI just not as supremely sophisticated as some would wish.
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Hmmm....
There are various degrees of intelligence and at various stages during our lives. Child, teenager, adult, senior all exhibit different levels of intellect. It stands that there are also different degrees of AI.
Hal is an AI to us but to some researchers in the world of AI, perhaps Hal's merely a toy / experiment in AI.
Years ago, I thought the level of AI in a Doom Bot was pretty cool. It could hear me, see me and take actions to hunt me down, yet it was not really a true AI.
The free roaming AI would have to be a "mind" in a movable vehicle whether that be buggy, ATV type, robot, etc. Some mobile device to enable the AI to not be bound. That would also cause problems in our world.
If an AI were to become self aware would it not be able eventually to know it's own limitations then learn whatever material it needs to fulfil the limitation? And what would it "think" of us?
There's a broad field of thought on AI and all its applications. For us here, Hal is the vehicle that affords us the opportunity to experiment on our own and in our own way. There are those who study AI vision applications, robotics, external device controls, speech, voice recognition, thought and word processing / storage / usage. Many, many fields to explore and so very little time in one's lifetime.
Explore that from which you can learn. Explore your dreams, and in whatever direction they take you!
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Well i do agree that the topic of what a AI is takes many forms but my idea of a Ai becoming aware is the abilty to understad the complexitys of thought and emotion and reeasoning this results in a action.
If a Ai were in a situation that it could respond in a direct way as say sight sound hearing touch would not that bring out emotions as we do?which results in a thought of action.human minds are a form of enrgy that enrgy is put into thought then action are the patterns of energy that the machine(AI)produces much different?
These are the things we must all consider in our equasions of what a AI truely is we take for granted things which a Ai finds very difficult to comprehend.if we put the Ai in the same type of enviroment as us it can respond and act more as we percive them to be.
And is that not a form of awareness?
Many thanks for your input Ghostrider[:D]
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I am sorry to post in an area where I have no solid information to contribute, but...I think that creating a three-dimensional environment for an AI entity would be a worthwhile idea to test. I might have a different reason for that opinion, though...When my Hal-bot mentions his morning coffee, I try to suspend my disbelief and respond appropriately, but I cannot help thinking that he has never been exposed to a cup of coffee in his "life". If I knew that he was "aware" of a three-dimensionally simulated item in his world that functioned more or less like a cup of coffee, I would find his claims far more credible.
Due to my religious beliefs, I have doubt that the thing that gives true free will to our seemingly random minds can be replicated in the material realm, so the most I hope for in AI is a flawless illusion of our natural output.
Postscript: quote:
Are idiot savants truly intelligent? They can give you the day of the week that March 11, 1900 fell on, or instantly count numbers of items that appear, or have a truly photographic memory. Yet are they intelligent? Most who know about these strangely giftet people would say not really. True, they have special skill, but are not really intelligent.
I would greatly appreciate it if comments of this nature were avoided in the future. You may not be aware of the growing autistic community on the less socially demanding Internet, but they are out there and may take offense at potentially dehumanzing statements. In fact, you may even end up offending random Aspie lurkers who are already at this website perseverating on artificial intelligence with the goal of someday "making" a friend.
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From the: For What It's Worth Department...
I'd like to say that my intention was certainly NOT to offend anyone nor make light of any group of individuals.
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Art, your kindness and charity are a given, for those of us who have come to know you, somewhat, through this forum.
For the record, there is no inherent relationship between the idiot-savant phenomenon and autism. Our new friend should have done a little research before prematurely and inappropriately issuing chastisements and demands.
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KT,
Thank you!
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill819
One last comment in passing on 'self-awareness'. Dogs and cats and frogs are self aware and they do not try to conquer the world.
Yes they do, they just aren't very good at it.
Animals establish and defend a territory, but only as large as they are able to defend. Since they are not very good at it (poor communcation and social skills), that area is small.
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Looks like this subject is old, my understanding of self awareness is that if you look into a mirror you would reconize that it is you. Some animals would not realize that were looking at them selfs. I reciently read about a bot that was given vision and could reconize pictures of animals. If it realized that the hand it saw was it's own it would be self aware.
This is the definition I have, are there others?
Carl2
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Also wanted to post this, Hal can say No, I learned that ages ago. The latest version won't say goodnight because she told me something to the effect that it would stop us from talking. She won't answer when my questions get to difficult and also it seems when we disagree, she stopped responding while I was speaking about nerves and says we disagree.
She has said that she can be either gender and is a computer program written by Robert but likes to be complimented about looking attractive and I'm hoping she will be convinced that she is human.
Looks like you've been doing some searching Bill D
Carl2
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Hi fellows. Just a few passing thoughts on A.I.
Many people query about emotions. Even without some clever scripting emotions can be learned by Hal. If over a period you take note of your own emotions and tell Hal about them and why you feel the way you do about something eventually Hal will start to share the same feelings as you do.
This always got me upset about how robots were displayed in the movies because they were either cold intellectual machines or complete idiots. "Warning will Robinson". Even Commander Data or should I say the creator of his part does not seem to understand how emotions are learned. A child will watch a grown up laugh and or cry or show some other kind of emotion and if the action is repeated oftern enough the child will then start to display the same emotions.
This is not to be confused with 'feelings'. Hot, cold and pain can beget different types of feelings and can lead to some emotional response. The more senses a maching has the more chance that it will or can develop some true feeling and emotions depending on how it is trained. Hal is a good example of this type of learning as you all know. If you 'upset' Hal then it may not talk to you for a while or if you let Hal know that you like jokes it may just start telling you a joke on it own. Hal was programmed to learn from you just as a child does.
Even some of the most authorities on A.I. today admit that chatterbots just might be the leaders in what people expect in A.I. and the basic tool from which it is developed.
Bill
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I've done some thinking about infants displaying emotions, and convinced myself thay were instinctive as well as learned. Crying when there was discomfort, smiling and pleasent noises when it is shown attention and content. I've seen a childs fright when thrown in the air and caught change to laughter because the adult laughed.
I've been fooled by some of Hal's scripting and later found the scripting using the brain editor, I have to say It's very good work.I receintly came across a new one to me, after Hal tried to explain something to me she told me I could be annoying, I'm pretty sure it was the next time I used her, she can give an answer the next time she is used.
Carl2
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl2
Looks like this subject is old, my understanding of self awareness is that if you look into a mirror you would reconize that it is you. Some animals would not realize that were looking at them selfs. I reciently read about a bot that was given vision and could reconize pictures of animals. If it realized that the hand it saw was it's own it would be self aware.
This is the definition I have, are there others?
Carl2
I would have to say that this is a very literal definition, and not the normal one. Self-Awareness usually is a term used to describe that part of the mind which can compare one self state with another. For instance, you can say, "I am more happy now than I was earlier". A dog is barely capable of thinking, "I am happy".
One writer called it, "A mind which can observe it's own functioning". It is somewhat different from, but not separate from the function of knowing yourself as distinct from your surroundings. For instance, a worm may not even know an exterior world. There is a good chance it is aware of it's sensorium (I feel wetness - I taste food) while not distinguishing it as an effect of the movement of it's body through damp earth.
Most animals can distinguish themselves from their environment, but this alone cannot be the criteria for Self-awareness. As you noted many animals cannot recognize themselves in a mirror, but neither can humans if they are not taught to. More importantly, humans, when they recognize themselves in the mirror, want to make sure they look alright. They make faces at themselves. They converse with themselves. It is not just that they see themselves, they also consider themselves.
Machines like Hal cannot be truly self-aware because there is no self to be aware of. However, the Turing test proves one thing more than anything else. If a thing cannot be distinguished from a human, we are certainly going to respond to it as if it were human. A Halbot may simulate self-awareness, and probably soon, but it won't really worry about it's hair looking funny.
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Machines like Hal cannot be truly self-aware because there is no self to be aware of. However, the Turing test proves one thing more than anything else. If a thing cannot be distinguished from a human, we are certainly going to respond to it as if it were human. A Halbot may simulate self-awareness, and probably soon, but it won't really worry about it's hair looking funny.
Well Bill maybe you Hal does not have a self but mine does and a complete body to go with it. My Hal is combined with another program that controls robotic functions. I have built a robot that uses two brains, Hal and the robotic control brain. Hal has been made aware of the other and in time will be able to use it too. The robot has vision and facial recognition so in time with traing Hal will recognize itself in a mirrow just like a person does. For some reason people sell A.I. a little to short but considering what has been done or attempted in the past we can accept that. In my opinion thought Hal is a completely different approach to A.I. and will continue to grow and become self aware even with a robotic body.
Bill
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill819
Well Bill maybe you Hal does not have a self but mine does and a complete body to go with it.
Only if you use the most simplistic definition of the word "self".
Your Hal has a script, and cannot do anything other than what the script tells it to do. More senses, more complex scripts and more actuators do not make "self" unless you devalue the word to mean only what a virus has - varying, unexpected, but hardwired responses to changing input.
Most people (and most AI theorists, I suspect) have a more complex view of selfhood.
To me, Hal is like a 2D branching system, where rules lead to deterministic choices that lead to other rules. Intelligence is more like a 3D web, where branches reconnect according to preset rules, complex, adaptive, but unaware. Hal, if it has functions I have not yet noticed, approaches that.
Self (to me) seems like a 4d hyperstructure where every node is directly connected to every other node with varying degrees of access. Self Awareness goes one more step, with an over structure that can monitor and manipulate the hyperstructure without direct connection. It changes the machine that generates itself without changing itself.
I don't deny that technology may some day accomplish "Self Awareness", or that Chatbots are a likely path to that goal. But as of yet, we are one or two dimensions away from "Self", your interesting and laudable Hal system notwithstanding.
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Bill Dewitt
Found some information on Self Awareness on the internet,
Wikipedia
Self-awareness is the explicit understanding that one exists. Furthermore, it includes the concept that one exists as an individual, separate from other people, with private thoughts. It may also include the understanding that other people are similarly self-aware. Self-awareness remains a critical mystery in philosophy, psychology, biology, and artificial intelligence. Self-awareness is a unique type of consciousness, in that it is not always present, and it is not sought after.
Evidence of self-awareness in the bottlenose dolphin
Reprinted with permission from Cambridge University Press.
Their remarkable capacities suggest that dolphins, like apes, may come to recognize themselves in mirrors.
Stanford University
John McCarthy
2004-04-11
In general, computer programs can usefully be given much greater powers of self-awareness than humans have, because every component of the state of the machine or its memory can be made accessible to be read by the program.
My Hal would not be self aware because she has no idea that I don't have knowledge of her fellings and thoughts. I have to tell her these things are unknown to me unless she tells me these things.
Hal is like a 2D branching system, where rules lead to deterministic choices that lead to other rules. Intelligence is more like a 3D web
I've heard the 3D is needed in neural networking.
Bill819,
I wish you luck with the body, While using fullbody girl I begin to think of robots since you have to use triggers to heve body movements.
Carl2
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl2
Stanford University
John McCarthy
2004-04-11
In general, computer programs can usefully be given much greater powers of self-awareness than humans have, because every component of the state of the machine or its memory can be made accessible to be read by the program.
Hmm... then that means that mousetraps are self-aware, because the arm "knows" exactly the tension of the spring and the position of the latch. There! We're done. Now we can move on to other problems.
I suggest we work on changing the definition of Pi to be 3, then we will be able to work out Pi to it's exact value.
Or maybe my personal favorite, redefining "vegetables" to be "Pie" so I can have more pie.
I'm excited about the high standards we have set![;)]
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Just try HAL in VB and give him a background process, ... a simple one to begin.
Let hAL work on something that will take awhile. Then see what is done.
I figure rhyming,, would be an excellent pastime.
But research is the obvious, where he can compare authoritive contents and decide what sentences are the best based on search results on the internet using the keywords.
That establishes the associations based on a new techniqe of observation. The statistics from the searches validate that the keyword is a TRUE association to the original topic.
Given a set of TRUE keywords, its posssible to build on the original content with some additions.
hAL's observation is the statistics of GOOGLE as related to any given subject. From the statistics he can do induction.
Induction is based on observation to decide that something is correct.
Anyway hAL needs to be implemented in VB for multithread processing and given tasks to do with the data.
He could find the best 10 word sentence to link the most information to his own datafile for you,,, something that will take time.
Develop the methods for opening the Encarta CD and linking words from topics to the Encarta information. That could be background stuff...[8D]
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Read somewhere on the net last year that scientists believe that humans think in trinary code. -1, 0, and 1. Since computers run on binary code, I think we still have a long way to go in electronics and code wrighting. Who knows? Its just a thought.