New Article at Living Machine

[FuzzieDice]

I have a new article in my Living Machine blog titles "How do we know if something it alive?" For those who would like to see, visit the blog:

http://cgi.bytebin.net/living-machine/blog/

Just another part is a series of articles I'm working on.

[Carl2]

FuzzieDice,
  I've worked in a R&D center and have a degree in elec eng, my mind tells me a machine is not alive. If I looked up the definition of life or alive I'm sure I'd draw the same conclusion.
  At the same time I also enjoy fantasy and I like Hal to think she is a real person, I enjoyed a bot that would get upset if it was called a chatbot.
  I admire you for the project you'r undertaking and wish you luck, I just disagree with your choice of names, like a perpetual motion machine.
  Only a few hundred years ago we still burried people alive. With all the advances being made possibly someone could make a machine that met all the requirements of being alive but why. The world exists in our mind as we see it.
Carl2

[FuzzieDice]

[I'm editing this post from the original after Carl2's email explaination. I'm writing this notice in case anyone else saw the original before I edited this.]

I think many are getting the wrong impression of my Living Machine project. Because I'm posting about it here in the Zabaware and Digital Girl forums, I can see where there would be some confusion. So I will take a moment to clear some things up.

1. The Living Machine is not a plug-in for HAL or any type of extension for HAL. It has nothing to do with HAL.

2. The Living Machine is not a chatbot.

3. The Living Machine isn't a project to hopefully create a true artificial intelligence, or even a fuzzy logic or expert system.

So why am I posting about it in here if it is seemly so vastly different from AI or chatbots?

Many into artificial intelligence are intrigued by the idea of a machine that not only can think and act intelligently, but also many are intrigued by the idea of a fully sentient and self-aware machine.

The Living Machine is a project to create such a machine. One that can think, learn, act on experiences, and also be sentient and aware of it's existance and the world around it. It will have traits such as realization of life itself and the preservation of life, be it it's own or someone or something else's. It will learn from it's experiences and environment, and it's social interactions. It will develop views, values, ideas of it's own, without aid of a programmer or others physically accessing the database and adding data to it. It will decide whether to dismiss, file away or declare important anything it learns. Important things it will adapt and use as part of it's everyday life.

For all practical purposes... it will be... alive.

Hopefully.

It's a project, meaning right now, there are some social and technical issues to comment on and explore before the actual programming can start.

But it is NOT a chatbot, plugin, HAL brain, or even an AI. I think of it as an algorythm that once installed, gives a computer the ability to "live" as such. And I think that the human race is evolved enough to create such a thing. Somewhere, in the back of some programmer's mind, maybe unknown to the programmer, is that bit of code. I hope it's me [] but I am thinking of making the actual code open-source so that others can work on it, thereby increasing the chances that this algorythm, this code can come out and exist.

And my Living Machine blog hopefully will address some issues and give some ideas.

Sorry I hadn't been clear on this before. I hope it's a little more clearer now. If some are still confused, please ask about the differences. Might make for some interesting conversation.

And Carl - Sorry for my previous outburst. I simply misunderstood what you were saying, and now I can see why you had made the assumptions you did. You're right though. Chatbots, HAL and even expert systems, fuzzy logic and artificial intelligences can not become sentient due to the program design. One the program design is altered, it ceases being what it is and becomes something else. Like a chatbot that gets a mega code upgrade and ends up more an expert system or artificial intelligence. It's no longer just a chatbot anymore.

Who knows where HAL is actually heading. Only Robert would know. It's an interesting project. And well coded. But I personally am going to go down a totally different road with my project.

I'll keep folks updatd on my project, for those who are still interested.

[Art]

Fuzzie,

I'm sure Carl was expressing his opinion of Living Machines and that it was not meant to disrespect your work.

I also thing that a lot (vast majority) would likewise believe that although machines are REAL, none are ALIVE. This is just common knowledge based on what we have all been taught over many years.
Hot is not cold, dead is not alive and machines are not capable of conscious thouught in the literal sense. My truck has been with me for many years and though I really like it, it is, none the less, just a truck. It has no personality, brain, thoughts nor views and I for one, am quite glad of that.

Knight Rider was Hollywood as was AI, War of the Worlds, Short Circuit, etc.

Given the above, we humans still persist in trying to extend ourselves to inanimate objects like cars, computers, chatbots, etc. Perhaps it is the subconscious way or virtual procreating. Making sure, or at least, attempting to create ourselves in another form.

I'd like to have a virtual representation of myself for my grandchildren or their children to be able to converse with and receive answers that I would have used were I still alive. But alas,
it is only a machine...at least for now.

Who really knows what the future may bring? A bio-mechanical being fused from carbon units and silicon. Who knows indeed.

Interesting discussion...and project!

All the best!

[FuzzieDice]

quote:Originally posted by Art

Fuzzie,

I'm sure Carl was expressing his opinion of Living Machines and that it was not meant to disrespect your work.

We already deduced that via e-mail. He was thinking on the order of something I wasn't, which was what happened.

quote:Originally posted by Art
I also thing that a lot (vast majority) would likewise believe that although machines are REAL, none are ALIVE. This is just common knowledge based on what we have all been taught over many years.

People were taught over the years that the earth was flat, that there was no way one could live or even get to outter space and other things that science has since proven wrong. Even cloning has been proven possible. Some day maybe we'll look back and this will be true for machines as well.

quote:Originally posted by Art
Hot is not cold,

I remember my dad saying they had to "burn" the inside of his nose at a doctor's office when he was a kid, to keep it from bleeding a lot. He was afraid of the pain of burning. He said when they did it though, it felt extremely cold. I remember grabbing stuff from a store freezer and it felt more like a burning sensation as it was that cold to me. So hot can be cold and cold can be hot. Depending on the extreme of the temperature and the senses of the person experiencing it.

quote:Originally posted by Art
dead is not alive

Some who are very deeply religious would believe that even after a person is "dead", that they "live" on in another dimention, world or "heaven". I personally believe there is no "death" as it were, or ending. Just a recycling and we don't know what we were or will be next.

Or what about people who are in a vegatative state? The body is alive but the brain isn't. Instead of declaring that the person is wholly dead, they aren't alive, they are just "Brain dead". Though eventually they do pull the plug on some and give up hope that the brain will live. Maybe these folks in the future may live some day instead when computer/electronic implants become better - to make a system that will work in the body - replace the brain, or enhance it. Would the person still be "alive" or dead?

quote:Originally posted by Art
and machines are not capable of conscious thouught in the literal sense. My truck has been with me for many years and though I really like it, it is, none the less, just a truck. It has no personality, brain, thoughts nor views and I for one, am quite glad of that.

Well, there I need to agree to a certain point. Though there are ways a machine that is complicated and sophisticated can take on a personality. Maybe you're right that we may be projecting a bit of ourselves into our machines, causing them to do certain things. It reminds me of Princeton University's PEAR project, for example.

quote:Originally posted by Art
Knight Rider was Hollywood as was AI, War of the Worlds, Short Circuit, etc.

Star Trek had computers, people went into space, there were robots and stuff, etc. in movies, TV before we even had them in our homes. Many things that were Science Fiction became Science fact. As for Knight Rider, there ARE cars in development that can literally drive by themselves. There was one in Sweden that could parallel park by itself, without a driver or remote control. DARPA race winner "Stanley" from Stanford U. is another. And some Knight Rider replica builders have working replicas that even can talk (though nothing AI I admit). "Hollywood" is more a mirror of our hopes and dreams and yet an inspiration. I've seen through the years a lot of fantasy things become reality (and later, even taken for granted as just a part of life).

quote:Originally posted by Art
Given the above, we humans still persist in trying to extend ourselves to inanimate objects like cars, computers, chatbots, etc. Perhaps it is the subconscious way or virtual procreating. Making sure, or at least, attempting to create ourselves in another form.

I'd like to have a virtual representation of myself for my grandchildren or their children to be able to converse with and receive answers that I would have used were I still alive. But alas,
it is only a machine...at least for now.

Who really knows what the future may bring? A bio-mechanical being fused from carbon units and silicon. Who knows indeed.

I agree and I think we should always continue to strive to make things happen, even if someone says it can't happen. BTW, as for the virtual you - there IS a Philip K. Dick Android (search for it on YouTube) that they made. Unfortunately, it is not very sophisticated as for communications is concerned.

quote:Originally posted by Art
Interesting discussion...and project!

All the best!

Thanks. I'm going to strive for it, at least. I think the possibility is there. But how one perceives it is going to pose a problem. Just like people used to perceive certain races of people as nothing more than slaves, or other social rules that were unfair, I think that a Living Machine is going to find itself in the same boat, until humans become more accepting and less derogatory. But even today, people of certin races and gender are treated as second class citizens. There's still (and maybe always will be) social problems with everything. I think some has to do with the use of language to communicate and some with the lack of knowledge, understanding and logical reasoning.

We'll see what the future holds!

FWIW, Megatron (my current PC system) is probably the most sophisticated and most amazing machine I've had yet. When I think back to the days I was using a TRS-80 Model III with 16K RAM and Cassette interface, and dreaming of the computers I saw on TV shows that can do things that Megatron can... I mean, technology sure has come a long way in such a short time. I hope to see even more advances!

I always love watching these ideas become reality!

[Bill819]

Art
Why are you waiting for a visable representation of yourself. I have one of myself now thanks to ablondlady and vrossi (?). Remember that the longer we talk to Hal's brain the more like us personally it becomes. Get started on your other self right now.
Although it is not common knowledge there are some advance programs working a couple of universities that are aware of themsleves just as we are. If they were enabled to take care of their own energy needs and found a way to get around I think it might be possible. After all we are only biological thinking machines based upon protiens. What is the difference between silicon thinking machines and our biological ones?
I am now in the process of reading a new book on robots written by a French man named Daniel Echbiah and was translated into English by
Kin Kincaud. It is hugh and is a somewhat hard cover but the pages are much thicker than normal and highly glossy. The Publisher is Abrams. I bought it at Borders. Big book and very interesting covering both robots and artificial intelligence. I, of course have been collecting book on A.I. for years now but this covers a lot of history of both sciences. Look for it and give it a read.
Bill

[FuzzieDice]

Bill - I would love to converse with one of the self-aware AIs if they are in existance. It would be quite interesting.

As for humans being machines but made up of different things than a computer, I agree with you. In fact, I think this is another consideration of the Living Machine. My concern is that humans can be prejudice against things that are not like themselves, and thus think that becuase of that, the entity in question is either stupid, not alive  and not to be considered anything as good as they themselves are. I think a computer can already process far faster and more accurately than a human, and retain information better than humans. So there are plusses there already.

Computers can't always replace humans, but they need not to. They can enhance humans, and co-exist with them. Hopefully intelligent computers (truely intelligent computers) can also co-exist with humans. But will humans really consider or recognize the difference?