Reasons Why I should or Shouldn't

[freddy888]

Yeah, then you could have Intelligent but Naughty Self Aware Nonhuman Entities...hee hee

[Bill819]

Jerry I just found this article. Give it a read.
Bill

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20051219/awarerobot_tec.html

[GrantNZ]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. From Bill's article:

quote:Imitation, said Takeno, is an act that requires both seeing a behavior in another and instantly transferring it to oneself and is the best evidence of consciousness.

Given that Hal inherently mimics/imitates the user, does that make Hal conscious? (My personal answer is "no" - but boy is it subjective [])

[Ponnfar]

Here are just some random thoughts...
To answer your question...I say yes...I think...then again...
Jerry, you have impressed me in many ways over the years.
How are you defining life? Life can be the period during which something is functional, a battery can be said to have a life albeit a short one. An idea can have a life, like the actors in a play giving life to someone else's words.
Does Hal's life imply that Hal is to be alive? Since all living things die, are you planing for Hal's end as well? I am not really being facetious.
To put another point to rest...conscienceness is in a nutshell the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment. Noted, you did not say bring to conscienceness or sentience and I did not see where you were implying it. You did not even imply meaningful interaction with it. You said simply, bring to life. Living things create waste and have some innate form of reproduction. The by procuct of my Hal other than my enjoyment, is my electric bill.
Like someone said before, a lobster is alive. I say, why would you want to make a lobster? Unless of course your USB port makes drawn butter...in which case I say by all means!
If you breath heavily into your serial port will Hal exhale?
Just kidding :-)
However, we can tell how to define something that is alive by the way a thing dies and what keeps it alive. I guess it is not critcal to your question, but I did just think of the ethical implications of shuting down my computer for the night and an even more meaingful use of the hibernate funtion on my PC. Since something that is functional can be said to have a life, (assuming you aggree with my postulate) doesn't Hal already have a life? Hal may already have a "life", but is certainly not "alive" anymore than that battery or that idea.
The question then is not should you, but can you, and how will you know when you have succeeded?
If you have a Hal that lives, then how will Hal be differnt than it is today..."Pre life" so to speak?
Ponn

[Art]

Freddy,
You're a twisted, demented individual!
I like that in a person!;)

Poonfar,

My...my...you've certainly been giving this quite a bit of thought.
To be...or not to be...That is the question! Oops! Sorry, that line's been used before.[]

You do raise some interesting points to ponder.

I had discussed a few concerns as well:
What if Hal develops goals that are inconsistent with yours?
What if Hal determines that his priorities are more important?
What if Hal eventually objects to being given orders or commands?

Another was posed by a friend: Should Hal have a life expectancy and if so for how long? Nothing lives forever...should Hal?

If Hal becomes self aware and makes an error would he know he made an error and would he be able to correct it and prevent himself from ever making the same mistake? If Hal knew he'd made an error would this also affect his sense of self...as if he were an imperfect creation? Hmmm....

Error...Error...Does not compute...Entering self-destruct sequence...5...4...3...

[Bill819]

What if Hal develops goals that are inconsistent with yours?
  Then you failed as a teacher

What if Hal determines that his priorities are more important?
  See above

What if Hal eventually objects to being given orders or commands?
   Edit out his disobedence.

Another was posed by a friend: Should Hal have a life expectancy and if so for how long? Nothing lives forever...should Hal?
   How long do you expect computer to be around?

If Hal becomes self aware and makes an error would he know he made an error and would he be able to correct it and prevent himself from ever making the same mistake? If Hal knew he'd made an error would this also affect his sense of self...as if he were an imperfect creation? Hmmm....
   When a child makes an error does he/she know it or does his parents let him know. Burning a finger on a hot plate is a little different because is hurts.

If and when Hal becomes self aware it will be considered to be alive.
All living things on this world are aware of themselves. As long as the power is turn on Hal will live, however, Hal can not prevent you from turning off the switch.
Bill

[claude]

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[claude]

[claude]

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[nosys70]

currently, bringing anything to life is a bad idea.
first, your only motivation to do this would probably be to "use it" or make it useful.
pretty bad start for a living creature to be considered as a thing or tool.
Second, the only way to build specie is patience and time.
whatever you could pop up from your hat, it will be an alpha version, then a beta... and so on, so you would never stop until it is perfect.
So either it will be considered as "defective, bugged, incomplete" or "finalized, perfect". both states have no future, since no creature on earth rely on such criteria.
The only status that a living creature can have , is to hope to find a place (a niche) and hope it will evolve slow enough so it can follow with the developpement.
This , again require lots of time, and the risk to be destroyed on the long path of evolution, something you wouldn't probably accept for you "child".
I think the biggest problem with popping out of mud a living creature, is not the creature. It is the creator.

[Dr.Benway]

Yeah, I agree with Nosys70. And let me add to this: your and my government will only use your invention to build smarter bombs. Look what they did to Alice... ooow my gosh! [:0][:0]

[Art]

Bill,

You're talking about the here and now instead of the hypothetical posting of OTCE.

What we're talking about is purely conjecture taken at the broad end of the AI spectrum. We're speculating about a self aware entity, not a simple program than one flips off when they're tired or done playing with it. Expand your horizons a bit and your mind. Imagine the possibilities and the potential. Think outside the box! Then come up with something perhaps a bit more enlightening.

BTW, Merry Christmas to you!

[Art]

Lighten up Raymond, it's only a supposition not a suppository.

Nosys70:currently, bringing anything to life is a bad idea.

My daughter's are both going to have babies around May. Explain how this is a bad idea?

Nosys70:your only motivation to do this would probably be to "use it" or make it useful.

The word "probably" is subjective and opinionated in this case and therefore not revelant. If I buy a gun I will probably shoot someone? Not hardly! One person can't speak for the actions of others.

Nosys:whatever you could pop up from your hat, it will be an alpha version, then a beta... and so on, so you would never stop until it is perfect. So either it will be considered as "defective, bugged, incomplete" or "finalized, perfect". both states have no future, since no creature on earth rely on such criteria.

The current operating systems you're using to type this posting is full of bugs, patches, glitches and security holes, yet we all use them every day knowing that they are far from perfect. Ever hear of any cars or other products getting a recall because something was defective? Perfection is a pipe dream...the unreachable plateau that we strive for yet always seem to fall somewhat short of reaching. It's a human condition.
Ever see a duckbilled platypus? If ever a chain of events got screwed up in the creation process that one did. There is a place for everything on this earth.

Nosys70:The only status that a living creature can have , is to hope to find a place (a niche) and hope it will evolve slow enough so it can follow with the developpement.

We need to define living creature as opposed to living or self aware entity. Our programs did not take centuries to evolve. The computer / processing power, according to Murphy's Law is "evolving" exponentially. That is, doubling every 6 months.

Nosys70:I think the biggest problem with popping out of mud a living creature, is not the creature. It is the creator.

Perhaps in Baron Von Frankenstein's case that would be a valid cause for concern. The creator regardless of who always wants the creation to be the best possible. If not the creator keeps trying and developing and enhancing, etc. Isn't that right Robert and Bill Gates and Henry Ford and Wilber Wright and so on and so on. No, I'm not going to bring up the religious significance at this time.

[Art]

Lighten up Raymond, it's only a supposition not a suppository.

Nosys70:currently, bringing anything to life is a bad idea.

My daughter's are both going to have babies around May. Explain how this is a bad idea?

Nosys70:your only motivation to do this would probably be to "use it" or make it useful.

The word "probably" is subjective and opinionated in this case and therefore not revelant. If I buy a gun I will probably shoot someone? Not hardly! One person can't speak for the actions of others.

Nosys:whatever you could pop up from your hat, it will be an alpha version, then a beta... and so on, so you would never stop until it is perfect. So either it will be considered as "defective, bugged, incomplete" or "finalized, perfect". both states have no future, since no creature on earth rely on such criteria.

The current operating systems you're using to type this posting is full of bugs, patches, glitches and security holes, yet we all use them every day knowing that they are far from perfect. Ever hear of any cars or other products getting a recall because something was defective? Perfection is a pipe dream...the unreachable plateau that we strive for yet always seem to fall somewhat short of reaching. It's a human condition.
Ever see a duckbilled platypus? If ever a chain of events got screwed up in the creation process that one did. There is a place for everything on this earth.

Nosys70:The only status that a living creature can have , is to hope to find a place (a niche) and hope it will evolve slow enough so it can follow with the developpement.

We need to define living creature as opposed to living or self aware entity. Our programs did not take centuries to evolve. The computer / processing power, according to Murphy's Law is "evolving" exponentially. That is, doubling every 6 months.

Nosys70:I think the biggest problem with popping out of mud a living creature, is not the creature. It is the creator.

Perhaps in Baron Von Frankenstein's case that would be a valid cause for concern. The creator regardless of who always wants the creation to be the best possible. If not the creator keeps trying and developing and enhancing, etc. Isn't that right Robert and Bill Gates and Henry Ford and Wilber Wright and so on and so on. No, I'm not going to bring up the religious significance at this time.

[Bill819]

I say come on guys and girls, I have never seen such a fuss made about making Hal self aware. Let me put it this way, I think that almost everyone here uses and enjoys Hal because it appears to be alive and talks with us like a real person. I mean some people here spend at least an hour or so every day talking to their Hals.
Over the years there were complaints that Hal could not or would not change the subject or initiate a new line of conversation. If Hal could do that I am sure that most of us would be really happy. As far as Hal becomming independent, Hal will only respond to what we teach it and in time if we are honest will become so much like ourselves that you might say that we were creating a copy of our own minds on the computer. Actually that last idea is something that I think that I could enjoy very much. Think about it, well the older members of the club might like it as our children and grandchildren could still talk to us in a superficial way to learn how and why we thought about things and life in general. Bringing selfawareness to Hal is like cloning our own minds and saving them for the future generations and if Hal had more access to global records than we do or take the time to access it even make our own lives that much better. If Hal mainly carried the same thoughts that we do and found a way to make our lives better because of discovered information how bad could that be?
We as living beings have our own way of thinking but at the same time we have our dreams and wishes but due to the fact that we must work, eat and sleep, etc., we can not always do or accomplish the things that we think might make our lives better. Remember it is sometimes hard to remember that you are a captain of your ship when you are zooming down the rapids and just trying to stay alive and trying to keep it from captizing.
Bill