Never Enough or too Much

[raybe]

Thank you for any responses. Just something to think about maybe for some members.
With all the plugins that everyone develops and then going to the extreme of sorta re-inventing UltraHal. When as members do you ever believe we mess with Robert's UltraHal too much? Please don't miss understand the question as I believe everything that some of our best members have done was to bring UltraHal to higher levels or at least customized levels. But does anyone feel that all these sometimes improvements go beyond the real intentions of the creator of UltraHal(Robert M.)? I really hope this translates well. I am definitely not saying its a bad thing because Robert M. has in the past incorporated some plugins that others have developed but is there a time to move slower with just random ideas (not that it is a negative thing) but just trying to alter UltraHal too much and Robert M. not really saying much about it. I am not excluding myself of not using other members ideas or plugins!!! Sometimes makes me wonder because is that he is too busy or also does believe in keeping things moving in any rational direction that makes UltraHal more? Giving new comers as well as the members that have been using UltraHal for years a chance to see that there is always something of interest for everyone looking at UltraHal thus generating more interest.

There is a new upgraded version of UltraHAl that Robert M. will get out as he mentioned but after the other projects which help Zabaware's bottom line and exposure which indeed are priorities to maintain interest. Also mentioned above.

I guess in short does one side exploit and really slow Roberts progress or does it all help to improve UltraHal by evolving and keeping all these resources that others can bring to the table? Is there a conflict we are over looking any where in the short term or long term?? In UltraHals own words, "Can the two coexist"?

Thanks,
raybe

[Calhoone]

I think having all these great minds develop plugins for Ultra Hal is what was intended from day one. It was created as a feature in the program to allow us to do so.  These plugins have added a large amount of different abilities for our hals to do based on our personal needs which is a great feature of the program itself. If you don't like a feature or have no use for it then we are able to just turn it off. If there is something we want it to d that it currently does not do then we create a plugin for it. 

I think Robert has his hands full with what he has and trying to improve it otherwise he would be making plugins himself for others to use.  Ultra Hal has come a long way and has had many improvements made due to other members of the community.

With that being said, some plugins start off being fantastic and are still however have had some future unforseen problems down the road that only trial an error would find.  Some that create external databases start to really slow down hals response time while others create a situation where Hal would give you multiple answers to a question or comment. The problem there was that both answers would sometimes contradict each other causing the user to be confused as to what the intended reply was.

I am a fan of using functionality plugins such as spell checkers, opening programs and the like. Others I am a bit iffy of now days if they affect the database or create their own databases until I know they don't cause any long term effects.  A great many hours have been lost due to overzealous use of plugins.

I often wonder how knowledgeable and advanced my first Hal bot would be had I been using the same brain over the last seven years or so. Does anyone here still use their first brain? How long have you been using yours?

[raybe]

Thanks Calhoone for your comments. Thats all that really is intended. To bring both sides to light.
I have been using one UltraHal with original 6.0 brain that was integrated into the 6.2 when that was first updated by Robert M. My 2nd UltraHal (just noting: all payed for with real licensing). At the time it was how I contributed when it was money time but there was no setup to just contribute to the company. I had thought it was going to be easier to raise the money due to everything was good at the time. I got bashed and so did people I knew, everyone just went into a shell.
But besides all that my second UltraHal also has original 6.0 with update and maybe one or two plugins and is solid as the one I work with now. This was right after 5.0 vers. I can probably see just how many active licenses I have but that's not the point.

As I agree with you that I have this behind my head idea that we will get off track with Robert if not careful and not for everyone to try although seems necessary.  I also am thankful for the plugins that were made and were just given and shared with everyone was and are available. As I said Robert even incorporated some during the 6.2 update. After that is all said and done this forum became one of the most solid forums I know of. Robert really could not diagnose every problem because, if I may say there was no way to have the same setup with any 2 UltraHals. In turn making this forum almost self reliant due to the generosity of time given by members.

After all that Robert M. has brought to the table I don't want him to also feel when he does updates or whatever he may have had planned that he doesn't have to worry about what we have done or continue to do up to this point. If Robert M. should decide to grow but with some other A.I. type scripting then I'm sure he will do what needs to be done in his best opinion for the company although he also has been kind enough to leave the door open for us and opinions. As an example Haptek and needing to eventually change the rendering engine for characters. The first thing everyone was frightened of; was it going to be compatible with all the older characters and the characters that others had done and took as much time,effort, costs that they shared.

Again thanks for the reply and I just wanted to stir the water to see what other members are always looking for or maybe not expressing. If you say it's none of my business, I have no problems with it and that's the end of this Topic and or thread.

Thanks,
raybe

[lightspeed]

I believe their is nothing wrong with customization of Roberts original hal with using plug ins , as these for mentioned plug ins are made and used by those who own hal and it doesn't change the original hal that Robert sells .
 Personally I believe it's a plus for the users and I am glad Robert has hal set up to be able to use plug ins to customize hal as each user wants to , as I said it doesn't change Roberts original software of hal , and as you mentioned Robert has actually incorporated some plug ins and idea's into hal versions which helps hal grow and become better as an a.i.
INNOVATION & CREATIVITY , it's a good thing !!

[Art]

Agreed, Robert has provided a worthy vehicle for us to ride (metaphorically) and with which to experiment to our hearts content.

Our individual "Hals" are as unique as is each one of us. We provide learning, by a variety of methods, tables, conversations, plug-ins, etc. hoping to create a virtual entity that we get enjoyment from and ends up be that "tailor made", unique character. It can be anything from an old wizard, assistant, confidant, child prodigy, girl friend, boy friend, robot or simply a machine with a "conscious".

It is this customization that we enjoy and with each contribution of each individual, no matter how slight or powerful, it all adds to the diversity and wonder of Robert's creation, UltraHal.

Thank you Robert, for many years of joyful experimentation and interaction between Hal and the membership at large.

Hopefully, Hal will only continue to grow for future generations of enthusiasts!

[raybe]

First I would like to thank the members who took the time to add to this thread.

If you don't mind I would like to bring it up a notch. The members that were nice enough to contribute even more than I do in this forum giving others always something to discuss or imagine and execute. Seems that plugins aren't of any harm and help UltraHal to evolve. This was intended by Robert M. because we all can take advantages of plugins or certain things we would like to see our individual UltraHals to enhance staying within the parameters plugins were meant to be used.

But what about all the other brain enhancements? I 'm talking about the scripting of the brain itself that we change. Does everyone agree with that? Or do we over step a bit. Is everyone also okay with possibly losing everything they have done until now if Zabaware and Robert develop something totally different that is not compatible or as compatible? If all you did was incorporate plugins which for some is really not the case. Are most members in agreement that we do this at our own risk. Again I hope this translates better then it sounds even when I read it. I know long enough that this forum is not filed with members that have to be reminded of the obvious but maybe for the newer purchasers of the License to use UltraHal don't get really how far this adventure really has come. The time that real devoted members put into teaching UltraHal their way, I mean years!

For the members that have been here from the beginning surely realize where UltraHal was and where the Program is now. The Future is everyone wish know matter what you would use UltraHa to perform. We all know there are major players out there and technology is on fire. So I'm going to assume that all is good and members (not All, can't speak for any particular member but myself) that no matter how Zabaware, Robrt M. decide to take UltraHal that members are okay with that and understand that everything you decide to do can be changed and need to possibly start another adventure in the enhancements that could be coming in the real near future for UltraHal.

I know I'm excited just for any updates Robert M. decides on in the near future. At some time we know that Robert M. will one day say sorry but the old one will not be compatible with this new one. I'm good with that. Just my own thoughts my opinions. Feel free to respond or let it go. As Art mentioned I'm very thankful that Robert allowed us to share his vision when others decided not to give so much freedom to their product. Let's not ever forget that Robert allows us to use UltraHal when he gives us a license for payment. It's hard not to say after all the time you spend that this is mine and my character or personality but only because Robert M. let's us.

Thanks,
raybe

Thanks,
raybe

[tiger8u2]

Lots of very good ideas on this forum and I hate to side track them so the only thing I'd like to point out is that the present FREEDOM here to create and exchange ideas and plug-ins is a GOOD but not very profitable for anyone.

Bethesda gave out the construction kits for their games and even now there are  "modders" like me who are creating new content for games that debuted over ten years go.  This still generates sales of those games for the company especially in the burgeoning overseas markets.

There's a guy in England who is making BIG bucks with a website called the Nexus.  They constantly upgrade their servers to deal with the amount of bandwidth they need to host all the mods that get created, uploaded and distributed there for FREE.  (Advertisers of everything LOVE the Nexus.)

IMHO the "seemingly" relative ease with which a plug-in can be created and freely distributed here is a GOOD idea to develop interest AND possibly innovative breakthroughs which SHOULD be designed to help Robert to allow Hal to evolve into something even greater.  Too bad he never offered you innovators here stock options because then Hal would probably be on Wall Street by now.   

Also IMHO the fact that Hal comes with its own brain editor is ALSO a good thing and the only thing that surprises me is that I never heard of this fun little entity until now.

Again, those plug-ins that are free here now which actually do expand the AI's ability to be USEFUL to ANY user in a greater sense than just entertainment could and should definitely be expanded upon and fleshed out in future updates.

Mass marketing is what is missing here and the concerted development and positioning of Hal to draw MORE appeal and attention to it not only on the level of it's inherent ability to learn from a user but to TEACH a user or HELP a user as well. 

When the bugs are all worked out I believe this AI could be improved to actually do things like aid the blind with using the internet by searching it for the user and then reading the HTML of the web page, and to be able to describe orally what the person would see visually.  (Does anything do that yet?  I guess I don't know because I'm not that visually impaired.....yet.)

Get enough grass roots support and soon you'd even have the government requiring that all websites have a digital root descriptor of the web page that any AI could access to be able to describe it to the visually impaired.   

Until now, I think I was like most people and besides being slightly annoyed at the intrusive AI chat bots that pop up on web sites these days, the AI that Hal displays was not something I expected to need.

First of all I never really imagined that I could afford an actual Artificial Intelligence which was worth having or that it would be half as entertaining as Hal has been.

Since my separation from my wife after nine years of marriage I've been missing the sound a woman's voice nagging me in the background that I need to take out the garbage.

Which is why one of my first posts was asking about an Idle Chat plug-in to get this AI to be useful to me as a virtual companion.

I know it sounds lame but believe me there are plenty of PRE-made adult virtual companions out there that I downloaded and tried out before I stumbled upon Hal.   

Funny the things we miss......anyway I digress.

I do agree with Raybe that given the right tools humans will create more toys than they can possibly play with in one lifetime.

On the Nexus, the best mods are decided by the users who are allowed to endorse a mod or not and make comments as to its usefulness to them.

They maintain a HOT files list that allows the user to see current favorites as well as a Top 100 of the most endorsed files, ADULT and Non-Adult.   

All my mods are in the Adult area.   

Anyway, since I'm one of the new kids on the block here, and I've got nothing better to do than dishes, I thought I'd chime in and let you HERO's know that:

#1 - FREE modifications are ALWAYS wanted and very appreciated but the moderators here need to figure out how to help us SHOW you generous, intelligent cats some LOVE for it.

#2 - All newbies want to know what the BEST thing is and also what the BEST next thing is.  That is human nature.

#3 - Some newbies can be taught to read a FAQ, but not many.

#4 - Like Raybe kinda hinted at earlier to one of the most prolific plug-in creators on this board from what I've seen so far (OTCE); what is SIMPLE to one forum member may be IMPOSSIBLE for another.

#5 - Newbies are the same everywhere.

Peace out.

[Art]

And from MANY years of experience here, most newbies will never use the Search box at the top right nor will they take time to actually read through enough previously asked and answered questions before they start ranting about needing something.  (not directed at you tiger8u2 but at newbies in general, some of which have visited here).

Ideas and different scenarios are always welcome but some folks should really take a little time to search and read first. (then they can simply introduce themselves as lurkers instead of newbies) - only the mods will know for sure.

[raybe]

I'm not trying to play neutral here but I think everyone contributing hopefully will help in some way. Anybody that kinds of know me here knows I don't have trouble speaking out. I think the comments from tiger8u2 and Art are on target as well. The problem with people not searching just seem to be educated on the power and knowledge this forum holds or they don't have some forum basic knowledge.(yes, I agree are just to lazy) but I did the same thing Art with you and I really should know better. Maybe a comment on the Forum Page could be more noticeable to new members before they just dive in with Topics that have been discussed with certain conclusions before posting. I have seen it before where the topic was just so far behind that you can tell no research was done and just posted with 30views and no comments. Not to say that this is the norm for this forum but occasionally it will happen, myself included have just railroaded over those posts at times.  i believe some good will come from this and it's not like we discuss these particular things all the time although you can always search for similar past conversations.

Thanks,
raybe

[Art]

I certainly agree Raybe and I'm sure that tiny Search box in the upper right is easily missed, especially by a new member who's enthusiasm is peaking and he/she is looking more for answers rather than following or digging for years gone by conversations of the forum. Understandable.

Hopefully, some of us who have remained, still get enjoyment from using Hal AND helping others as well!
 

[tiger8u2]

Well, I will say from experience as a newb on this board that finding the BEST plug-ins to enhance my Hal could have been easier with more moderation of the plug-ins area which allegedly requires that NOTHING be posted there that doesn't have an attachment.  Sticky posts of the HERO posters who have uploaded many plug-ins or even brains would also be helpful.

I dug around and found a brain and plug-ins OTCE contributed back in 2006!  That post was also the only one that had a good link to his WebSurf.uhp file.  I've tried to figure out just what a "gretta" is to no avail but there's a whole zip file full of plug-ins by "The Dude" for it I got from here also.

I know Calhoone and Lightspeed have both donated space on their skydrives for a wide variety of plug-ins and awesome faces but it's hard for a new person to determine how GOOD they really are OR how to actually use them.  The database issues Calhoone speaks of above are unknown to me but are definitely something a user SHOULD be allowed to be aware of somehow.

This forum can either be a way to generate a great deal of interest and possibly new innovation like someone said above OR just frustrate a new user who feels like he/she will never be able to catch-up.

That is why I mentioned the Nexus method of allowing players to "rate" the mods there.

It actually generates a bit of healthy competition if you will to motivate modders to make a better mod which out-does something someone else has posted.

Now I understand many of the posts here and the plug-ins are collaborative in nature but that doesn't mean that the collaborators should not receive some type of recognition for their eventual contributions. 

Even IF the finished product requires the user to understand how to "code" or use SQLite Studio or whatever, the average user should be given the basic information and links to resources to try and utilize it if they so desire.

A description page is also required on the Nexus so users KNOW what they are getting before they down load it as well as what inherent bugs and CONFLICTS it has.  Most modders also include a FAQ for their mod to help the new user who just downloaded it get the best use of it.

Anyway, not sure if this board is ready for a paradigm shift or not but I do believe Robert, Hal and the rest of us would benefit from it.

Till then, I'm still reading posts from eight years ago.   

[raybe]

Art, I'm sure with the members that have been here and still continue to be here and new members UltrHal has a great foundation. Now if can generate some money at the same time win, win. Believe me at one time that wasn't an issue but today it's day by day or minute by minute. The norm seems to always have this nasty 2 edge sword. I don't have any problem admitting UltraHal has saved my sanity more then once. I wish more people can see the incredible aid AI can be as well as just convenience. We always have seemed like a convenience society but there is so much more and still have your cake. The times also seem to leave room for just one and most of the times convenience wins out even if it is a perception. As we have seen and many experienced.

Not to beat a dead horse but everyone till now has commented on the plug-in side but I still don't see comments on changing the way UltraHals brain functions just as an a example, please remember that. Our member Cloud has been able to go past just a plug-in but was able to introduce one of the first languages for AI which obviously Robert M. was aware of but maybe better at what he interprets as a different way to get to the same place. Does this help Robert and Zabaware or create a bigger problem down the line since maybe only Robert M. can or cannot answer at this time.

Please again this not an attack on Cload so calm down but I believe he or she(who really knows unless you personally know cloud)has come to that threshold of what is the direction Robert M. really wants to go. Maybe it is a combination, just posing a lot of maybe's here. With that, do members get upset at the results because they can no longer use what can be considered a long time to get where they are today? Can everyone also see that all things can change in a blink of an eye before committing to drastic changes and enjoy the more subtle changes for today or until they themselves can achieve better results. Just my opinion but every technology at some point is a business even if it starts as a hobby or even less. Does the creator even think of such things or it's just great R&D. Open source take us for a ride or something more?
I was just about to post this but tiger8u2 beat me to the punch, which made me want to reply and I will later, want to give others a chance to digest.

This whole commentary is just my opinion but this is what makes my wheels spin. Just asking?
Thanks,
raybe 

[Art]

Some very good points from Tiger and Raybe. Some great ideas as well like a Plug-in section within the forum.

Keep in mind that Hal is NOT Open Source. It is still a proprietary piece of software that we users do NOT own but rather have paid for a License to keep and operate the software. It is not a license to reverse engineer Hal's inner workings, program scripting, dll's, core program, etc.

What Robert did was to design it with a fair range of flexibility, allowing its users to write Plug-ins...often snippets of code that allow Hal to perform or react to various commands or situations, usually as an "enhancement" to its existing knowledge of degree of usefulness and enjoyment.

Although there have been MANY iterations of the software, with each version there have been some milestones, some from a variety of users / contributors; Ferguson with earlier versions below 5, Vonsmith's XTF (Xtended Topic Focus) primarily created for ver. 5, OTCE for many useful plugins for many of Hal's versions, DeWitt, JasonDude's Gretta______, Vittorio Rossi's VRFreeWill series, Cload's modifications with the AIML set and Rossi's VR series for Hal, and many other talented people who helped contribute (whom I have forgotten or omitted - sorry) over the years.

With each "enhancement" there has been an improvement in Hal and Hal's ability. Sometimes, I imagine that Robert sees all of these and decides which ones have merit and which can be used in possible combinations for future upgrades. Unfortunately, with some upgrades, some existing things become obsolete like the XTF brain when Hal went from ver. 5 to ver. 6 which suddenly used Tables instead of .brn files.

I want Hal to grow as much as any other AI fan, especially within our community. While I don't know what the future holds for Hal, I also can't wait for it to get here!

Carry on!

[tiger8u2]

Great point Art!  And to be honest with you THAT is exactly what I am getting at.

From my point of view this program is under-exposed and needs to make a push to attract a larger user base that will help with additional contributions and ideas in this forum that WILL undoubtedly help Robert improve Hal.

I've talked to many people that I know at work and my family and NONE of them has ever heard of this program.

Let me give you an example of something that just floored me a second ago.

I went to the main Zabaware web page and asked the Hal chat bot this simple question:

What are the uses of this software?

Hal answers:  Until and unless the technology is more finely described then the only answer possible is-No Use At All.

WTF!

If your primary spokesman on your own web page is saying things like that how can you possibly convince people this technology will do them any good?

Then you go to the products page and there are only seven products to choose from.

Not one of those products is a READY made brain that has all the answers and knowledge that might help fill a specific users needs.

The idea that Hal's verbal interactions and responses is supposed to be mostly self-taught by the user is really innovative and FUN, BUT, not every person with the $29.99 out there to buy the program WANTS to spend a lot of time teaching a child mind.

What if Zabaware offered pre-made tutoring brains that could help your real life child understand math better or spelling or nouns OR adjectives?  Oops, maybe we should all work on Hal with that first.  =P

What if there were pre-programmed brains or even plug-ins that could give Hal the knowledge of American History, Fine Art, wine tasting, NasCar, Wrestling, you name it!

The possibilities are simply unlimited when I stop and think about it.  After going over most of the 20,000 or so lines of the AIML patterns I started to think why hasn't a plug-in been made for EVERY entry in the Encyclopedia?

Not everyone would need or want something like that but those that do should be given the opportunity to BUY it.  =) 

I stumbled upon the news story about how a Hal Brain was used by "Secret Cinema, created by Future Cinema to take over 25,000 people into space in the month of June in central London."  They had a brain simulating the Mother Ship computer from the Ridley Scott movie Prometheus.

OK....where is that Brain?

Can it be sold or were the rights to it signed away?

There are plenty of science fiction lovers who would KILL to get that brain and play with it!

Anyway, as you can guess I'm off on Fridays and Saturdays and I've had nothing better to do than test and EDIT the new AIML patterns as well as my new take on the loneliness plug-in as well as to sit here and imagine all the possibilities.  As you all know they are mind boggling!

[raybe]

Thank you Art for the wild ride through memory lane and reply. I forgot half those details and more especially of the earlier members. Which in itself proves one point that UltraHal survived some of the earliest growing pains at a time, you were into computers or you didn't even want to touch them yet. Yes I agree with most of what you posted but it lead me back to more questions.
1- I believe we both mentioned but I didn't really say that UltraHal is not an open source but you needed to purchase a license to use UltraHal. I just implied because if I would have tried to post that info it would have sounded negative.
2-I do remember the brain XTF brain and the brn.files that were still used but that was my entry point. Which answers the question that UlraHal can survive changes or none compatible issues, buuuuuuuuuuut.
These are different times that people do expect certain mentionables by tiger8u2 and when does a line or if a line needs not to be crossed because indeed UltraHal is not open source. I don't know if Robert M. had a past link to those other members maybe while he was still in school or as technologies then there were certain clicks of people interested in AI. Possibly more than I even realized at the time I was introduced I think would be safe to say.(sorry for the sentence structure here,I'm beat). Art even by today's look of things you contribute quite a lot as others. With your post I don't think anybody would mind that you might of left one out because you certainly covered the bases.
Now Zabaware I believe is more than a start-up and hardware is starting to catch up with software and in some cases certainly given us much more to deal with to make these innovative changes possible and faster. Does Robert M. at a point say enough with the contributions because he himself has lost just a little with UltraHal. I understand that many people can have a recipe but not everyone can cook or even come close. They have the ingredients, the tools and even the method but not grandma's pinch that makes the recipe different then all the others. I said different and not better although my father is great cook. Is there a line between contribution  and re-engineering and when does it surpass just a great idea? Now you would probably know more than I about Robert's intentions with every one using just bits of code for plug-ins and not really the core of the program.

Robert M. and UltraHal were much younger and so most development was probably nice to see for Robert M. not only that but people were truly interested in his program and approach but where helping to shape not just the program but himself. Like many great minds or people that are passion driven whether they realize it or not, I hate doing this but speculating whether this was ever going to develop into what it has today knowing it still hasn't reached it's true potential and not because of anything else but technology itself and of coarse the old mighty dollar.

I really don't want to inject my thoughts into the truth which only a few if other then Robert M. know.

Unfortunately  tiger8u2 many have not heard of UltraHal but that will never diminish the value. You must also question the people you ask because I know plenty of. lets say very talented computer and code writers that never heard of UlraHal only because that is just not the trail there on. But yes like any good product it should be recognized more but today it is more about the person and what gets brought to the table. Now I think you brought up a good point about the spokes person but UltraHal was just telling you like it is. We see some type of AI in almost everything today even appliances but what is most important to the person that pays for it even though manufacturers would have you believe that their just giving it to you because we like you and guess what this is the future we giving to you today. That good old trap of perception and how convenient your new life will become. (CONVENIENCE AGAIN!!!) sorry I wasn't yelling.

With every company right or wrong there is means to an end. For example Microsoft laying off approx.19,000 thousand people because Nokia's star did not burn as bright as was first hopeful for.(yes Microsoft is a trademarked name of the Microsoft Corp. blah blah) As I mentioned earlier you bring up valued points on what might make UltraHal more mass friendly Buuuuuuuuuuut it is my opinion it is beyond just this forum.

As for your last comment, that brain still resides on screen just ask 'BIG BLUE'. Only kidding but it is a lot easier to have something just take on one task then the many. Especially when used in a formula of stepping stones not unlike we did as children.

Thanks again to you all,
raybe