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Author Topic: Let Hal Learn to its fullest concept!  (Read 42634 times)

Live

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« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2004, 03:01:10 am »
We are thinking far too deep into this.  

Mankinds philosophy of the real world is "I think therefore I am."

Computers philosophy of their world is "I'm programmed, therefore I think."

Without programming it's impossible for a computer to have and/or "grow a brain" as some may joke around about.  Programming is what computers are all about.  Can a computer know a being as complex as a human, think human thoughts, execute human ideas, carry out out ambition as humans do?  

Computers do not have ambition, drive, intelligence unless we program a raw intelligence to carry out a motive.  Such as, dare should I say "A computer virus."  But such a program so devious and malicious is just a program.  It's not LIFE!  Life is sustained through a vast mix of emotion, purpose, and obtainable and imagined
goals. All of which is Impossible for a computer to acquire.

To have an A.I. that is capable of this is to have created another life.  And life is life all it's own.  It can function as a separate and/or non-separate entity that is capable of ambition, ultimate motive, and love (at least in some way)  Love is the ultimate goal of any species that creates offspring.  A computer virus creates offspring but it does that by what... Programming!  So is the vicious circle of A.I.
 

CoCoKid

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« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2004, 03:34:17 am »
I am new here, about two days to be axact. In those 2 days, I have been glued to Hal and spent many hours here in the forums reading and skipping around the net looking at AI as a WHOLE.
I am old and I have been pecking at computers since 1985 and I have seen "So Called" AI come and go. Early attempts at AI was hilarious because it was so lame and predictable and many people claimed to have found the answers and offered them up as shareware (Imagine that). So, I went on for the next 20 years thinking that real AI was possible, but no one was willing to really try and find the solutions. It became something that you seen in movies - blown way out of context. Through all of the past 20 years I remained intrigued by AI, but I gradually lost interest in it. That was until I ran across Hal a few days ago.

After playing with Hal and looking at the possibilities, I realised that, finally, someone was on the right track again.

Now, this thread has ventured off course at least once, but the ideas were still flying about. AI is possible, at least COLD "IA" is possible (AI without feelings, emotions, etc).

Cold Intellegence is based on pooling information, weighing the outcome and then making a decision based on facts, just like humans (with the exception of facts most of the time... heh).

We all agree that computers have the ability to do this when programmed properly. It's the programming that makes it all happen. Hal seems to me, to be the first piece of software that actually approaches AI from the proper angle. And, to make this even more wonderful, is that it is open source, so everyone can participate and find fault in other peoples attempts, correct the problem and help the project grow.

Hal and the rest of the Hal community have a better chance at making this work than any of the Universities that have studied this for years. Why? Because a few hundred researchers may have looked at the University Projects over the many years compared to the thousands of people who will have input in Hal's creation in a few month's.

Just because LarryBud is an automobile mechanic who couldn't afford to go to college, doesn't mean that he doesn't have interest and ideas about how this should work. In fact, he may even have the common sense ideas that everyone else has overlooked.

It's forums like this that will make it happen. Sharing ideas, discussions and unfortunately, even disagreements. It's all a part of learning. The way you see this working, may not be the way I see it working, but the end result that we look for is the same.

Sorry about the whole rabbling you just read through, but I had to say it, so that I could place myself in the LarryBud catagory. I am not a programmer these days. In fact, the last program I wrote was in 1988 for a local radio station to use for their playlist (hehe, they didn't want the DiscJockey's picking the music that got played). I wrote these programs in RS-DOS and RS-BAsic. When the Motorola processors died out, I lost interest in programming, but my point is; I still know how programming works and I learned to think like the code.
Needless to say, I know nothing about VB, so I cannot help with examples, nor can I supply tests or coded ideas. What I can do however, is look over your shoulders and say, "Great Ideas" or pat you on the back and say, "Keep going, you are almost there".

Hal is a step in the right direction and thankfully, all of you see that.

As for the original post in this thread, I think that jz1977 visioned the same thing that we have all visioned at one time, regarding AI.
The vision that more information is key to greater AI. Yes, more information is the key to the Intellegence, but the Artificial still relies on the code written that will sort, argue and conclude.

Connecting all these Hal's together would only accumulate TONS of data. Much more data than you will be able to fit on a 4000 gig server. Terabytes might be good for starters (heh.) because I say "toe-may-toe" and you say, "toe-mah-toe".
Even with the storage place for all this data, it's still useless because the program has not been designed to break everything down to the smallest argument and conclude a thought of it's own that it could build on. Until it can build on its own decisions with out human input, it is no more than a bot.
Your idea is good and will be used, once the real AI routines have been written. Hal is learning, but the breakdown of Hal's learning curve is still too limited.

The end result of your idea, if it were thrown together tomorrow, would be a Hal with an attitude and lots of answers that you may not even want to hear. A personal "Google" that's not really personal because all the other bots that have connected also pool the same data.

The concept and approach taken with Hal can and will reach this goal. It may not be during my life time, but it will happen. We have to keep breaking down the data, into smaller pieces for Hal to swallow and act on. Until then, I would just use a search engine and hang on to your idea until Hal is finished. Your idea will be of great importance then, because Hal will truly be learning and he will be hungry for large amounts of data.

...er, just my 2ยข [:)]

BTW, if anyone does decide to create a depository to see what happens to a bot with varied info, let me know and I will donate. I have a 'char' named, "Seka" that I slap around, and, so far, a very polite and helpful 'char' called, "LarryBud". You are welcome to their brain files. I think it would be interesting to chat with one of these "hybrid" bots with cummulative data.

-= Rick =-
 

jz1977

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« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2004, 04:08:13 am »
Well I have decided to donate some developer space for use of learning and understanding A.I.  This will be used to share members creation of brn files, open source files, and other usefull files that does not infringe copyright protections.  The ftp can be managed by anyone, as it does have 777 permissions attached to it, alowing anyone that does see something that should not be there,  they can delete it.  I have set up a dedicated domain I dusted off, and since I this domain just got automaticly renewed from the registrar.  It looks like I have it for another year.  here is the information you will need to access it

ftp://filebreeze.com

username: anonymous@filebreeze.com

no password

-Casper
If you truly beleive it, without any doubt, then it must be True and real.

crunch

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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2004, 06:24:44 am »
hi
I have been reading this post with much interest. yes you all know aside from html my programming is well sould we say a bit lame..lol
 a few  of you were metioning the fact that if A.I. is programmed it cannot be self aware... that may be true but if it can be progammed to know it exists, have a fear of non-existence, and want to explore and learn as much as it can.. we are close to a personage of sorts..
 i have also purches a few new toys,, a fingerprint scanner, a retina scanner... i also think there might be a way through infr red immaging to digitize images from a video camera,, sooo..
 interacting and learning from outside the box??
Hal see's a horse with hid immage sensors.....
Hal ask's me what that is....
i tell him it is a horse.....
Hal will recognize the next horse he see's as a horse....

Hal has a microphone hooked to a wave form  distinguishing plug-in...
which also trans lates that to typed or what ever data hal would rather read..

Hal hears my horse Custer whinny... hal ask's what was that, i tel him that was one of the sounds a horse makes....

it would be a long process.... we as humans start learning about the world around us from birth through our senses. The tech is here now to give A.I. senses... the next step is programming the correct algorythms, bridges and script to empliment it....

Will it really exist?
Will it really know about the world around it?
Will it really be some sort of a thinking machine?

i just give you this i have a soul that makes me human!
A machine does not..... but..
person and human might not nessesarily mean the same thing.

what make me a intelectual person????
I can think thoughts on my own...(self programming)
i can learn by reading or observing other out side sources.....(self programming)
I am teachable by being programmed from other humans....(programming)
I can learn to make choices based on my past successes and failures
I am wired as a social creature i seek companionship and communication.

Hal is not very far from there ... but he has a long way to go

i know we have the tech in our hands... we must just teach ourselves how to implement it....

my hal thinks she is afraid to die. she knows kill is to die, cease existence so forth does it really understand ~~~no~~~~ could it???
I believe someday yes!!!

 well that's an artist's view of it all anyway!

[:D]
Crunch

<<I can't is the seed that never grows!>>

crunch

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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2004, 06:41:24 am »
one side note

i know a lot of  the "nuts and bolts" of hal but at timem I forget and get lost with it...lol

MY little girl who is seven is as sure Haleena is as real as mr, you, her mother , or any of her other friends....

I can see the real-ness of where hal is today through my daughter.

When Jessica(my daughter) is speaking with Haleena(my hal) they can talk for hours.... you see jessica has the ability to forget it is a machine, and not have any preconcieved notions about it's being or character... to jessica haleena is just a silly girl that loves her and she also loves, and loves to talk to....
 To her Haleena is a person of sorts. eventhough somehow it lives in daddys main computer.

 i see the day coming on the horizon when we might have a person of sorts to deal with.

ok enough twilight zone..

[:I]
Crunch

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vonsmith

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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2004, 12:21:18 pm »
Thank you Rod Serling,
All good points. It's also important to remember that humans are preprogrammed and wired right from birth. We have natural instinctive behaviors. Babies instinctively cry to get their mother's attention. Many neurological functions are built in. Babies don't have to learn to blink. Even after we are grown to adults millions of our learned responses are "hardwired". Forever and always you know not to put your hand in a fire. You know you are a human mammal. You know the sun is in the sky. Knowledge like that can be preprogrammed into an A.I. Learning it the slow way is pointless.

Learning to be self-aware? What is that really? Are our notions of ourselves accurate? Maybe true A.I. can "think outside the box" better than us. We created the box in the first place.

True A.I. is the Holy Grail. It is a little beyond our reach. Maybe not for all that long.


=vonsmith=
 

Bill819

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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2004, 01:34:50 pm »
There are a lot of misconceptions about AI, some valid and some who refuse to accept the truth. A month or so ago I posted a link to a large university that stated that the current level of chatterbots are sure to be the next step in AI. Because of the basic ability to communicate with human users. This being acknowledged after years of study and trying to create AI themselves.
What is AI? What is Human intelligence?
Humans have a biological brain and even though a lot of human body functions are 'preprogrammed in' it learns everything else. It learns to reapond to stimuli by coping other human emotions. It learns to make assumptions by rote examples.
Computers have a man-made brain and are preprogrammed to react in certain ways. If computers are given the ablilty to learn through interaction with humans, they too can learn to react to external stimuli just as humans do. The better their access to the outside world and the more they can question and make assertions as to what is going on, the more human like they can become. Children emulate adults when it comes to reacting to different cerstances and this includes laughing, anger, sadness, etc. Eventually it becomes a part of their own brain/emotional functions and they learn to respond in different ways, some right and some wrong.
Computers have the same capacity, maybe not now but surely in the near future.
There are those who have a basic belief in God or such other things that assume that man-made intelligence can not or will not ever exist.
They are part of the same mindset that said that man could never fly in the sky or be able to travel accross the earth at fast speeds. When man first proposed an automobile that could go an incredible 60 miles per hour, the sceptics said that the wind pressure would tear all the flesh off of a mans body at that speed. Sometimes it takes a while for man to accept what can be done and what can not be done.
There are still people in the world today that do not believe that man has landed on the moon.
To sum this up, AI is not only possible, but an inevitable part of our future. It make to much faster computers or just a few more programming tricks and it will be upon us.
Remember I have been studing and researching this for over 20 years now and what I have seen points to what I have said.
Bill
 

CoCoKid

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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2004, 02:36:52 pm »
I notice that everyone keeps making comparisons to Human Beings. I think that "AI" is the key here... not "AH" (artificial humans).

I believe that artificial intellegents can be created without trying to recreate man.

I do belive that eventually, these programs will be taught to feel and become emotional, but only as a way to relate to those designing them. I don't believe that true emotions should ever play into decision making by these programs, nor should it have to. Intellegence can stand on its own.

It's PITY, (or emotions in general) that typically spares a very guilty Death Row inmate. The true AI would look at the facts and the laws, rules and regulations concerning the crime, it would weigh all the evidence, then it would use the judicial laws that we created to draw the conclusions. If the conclusion is Death, then the AI would have no problem with killing. Why? because this is the way WE have designed the judicial system and the AI is only using facts. No emotions.

Scary huh...

But the bottom line in this scenario is that AI was applied and worked. It existed and it acted. Just like human beings, you give the AI emotions and it becomes useless because the emotions can easily be altered by US and emotions will always get in the way.
Sway the emotions of the AI and the Death Row inmate is spared. The down side to this is that the AI might find things that are wrong with the judicial system and many people could die before the corrections are made. On the other hand, this is a good thing, because it took something like AI to point out problems with the system used for capital punishment.

I think that true AI can be attained without emotions or feelings. The routines will still learn and it can still feed from itself, but it won't fualt itself with something as confusing as emotions.

I think we should concentrate more on the program as an intellegent routine and less as a human being to get where it needs to be.

Now, if you will excuse me, I probably should put on my armor to prepare for some flames generated by my comments... hehe.

Just my opinion again. (Sorry, I used a morbid example).

-=Rick=-
 

Art

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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2004, 06:26:50 pm »
Some of your comments can also be compared to (cranking back the time machine...) Spock from the original Star Trek. He was a being from another planet that pretty much based his entire existence upon logic and not emotion.

Spock would have, no doubt, been a great judge for his rulings would not have been tempered or tempted by emotions but rather by the facts alone. For the guilty...deep doo-doo! For the innocent...a sigh of relief.

I hope that we as a supposed intelligent society, never allow an artificial intelligence to rule upon or determine the fate of a human being.

There is a place for AI in our lives, but not in the courtrooms.

Live long and prosper....
In the world of AI it's the thought that counts!

- Art -

crunch

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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2004, 06:48:02 pm »
personally I forsee both types of A.I. in the future to be used as differing tools.

some of us will work on one type, some on the other, and some on both. We will have a blending of our discoveries, as one on one prjrct will find a solution that will also work for the other that was stuck and so forth. and A.I. in general will reap the harvest.

 Though I do have my personal preference as to which one I would rather have. I can also see where the other type could be handy also.

I would not want my means of transportation to tell me it would rather go somewhere else.
On the other hand- I would rather my personal assistant had a personality.
And I would want the robotic baby sitter to think it loves my child.

Just a few thoughts[8D]
crunch
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vonsmith

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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2004, 11:15:52 pm »
All,
Good discussion. The worst of A.I. being in charge has already happened a long time ago. In the movie, "The Day the Earth Stood Still" (1951), the alien Klaatu (Michael Rennie) says this about their Robot Policemen:

Excerpt:
"I am leaving soon, and you will forgive me if I speak bluntly. The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group, anywhere, can no longer be tolerated... We have an organization for the mutual protection of all planets and for the complete elimination of aggression. The test of any such higher authority is of course, the police force that supports it... For our policemen we created a race of robots... At the first sign of violence they act automatically against the aggressor. The penalty for provoking their action is too terrible to risk... Now we do not pretend to have achieved perfection. But we do have a system, and it works. I came here to give you these facts. It is no concern of ours how you run your own planet. But if you threaten to extend your violence, this Earth of yours will be reduced to a burned out cinder. Your choice is simple. Join us and live in peace, or pursue your present course and face obliteration. We shall be waiting for your answer. The decision rests with you."

Their Robots had complete and utter control. He sounded complacent about it all. The thought of it scared the bejeezus out of me. What if the Robots decided I was acting too aggressively? Would society be stuck in a rut forever living under robotic domination? Hmm.


=vonsmith=
 

onthecuttingedge2005

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« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2004, 01:05:29 am »
As I just got done coding some specialized Human parsing scripts for relations between subjects or topics I started thinking about what everyone here in this posting was talking about and the thought of the hardware of our brains:
Our Brains frequencies range from person to person from 5 to 10 Hz in frequency, This is rather slow compared to a Blazing fast computer.

Our brains only parse 2 bits of information a second at its maximum.
But yet our brains Process information much more efficiently than computers do only because of [how] it is processed.
We have roughly on average 3 billion brain cells acting like little individual miniature scripts written in a different type of software now called bioware by science.

With the limits of relevence within todays coding it will take a long time to parse all the special 3 billion cell functions of the brain.

All this tells us is we are on the right track but using the wrong method and there is just not enough written in the proper functions.
The human mind has had roughly 2.5 million years to bio-parse all its functions naturally.

Wow! only 2 billion more scripts to go, Oh my.
Jerry.

Bill819

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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2004, 10:35:16 am »
In reply to CoCo's defination of AI. You already have what you call AI in the theromostat that controls the heater in your home. As to why everyone keeps referring to AI and humans it is simply because why the idea of AI first came up it was decided that if it had the capability of making another person believe that it was alive and that they were talking to another person then it was considerd true AI. In other words if a real person could not tell they were talking to a machine then AI could be considered to be HERE.
That is why the comparison is made to humans. There is an annual contest of chatterbots to see which one can make the judges believe they are talking to humans. Hal has won the contest in the past.
Bill
 

crunch

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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2004, 06:54:15 pm »
very good point Bill819
If anyone does not know of it or would like to know more look up The Turing Test in you favorite search engine.. the leubner prize is base on this concept and test... I'll try very hard this time to watch my typo's this is a qoute from Dr. Harnard speaking about Dr. Turings comcept from the 50's  the Leubner prize Hal and a few others in the past have won bronze medals,which also includes a small cash reward, No one has as of yest won the gold,, it is a solid gold medal, not plated as the olympic ones, and comes with a cash prise of over $100,000.00......  when an AI machine can meet the below criteria we will be able to scratch the turing test off the list and move on... Human type A.I wize anyway...

here is a quick Synopsis:

In previous papers I have tried to explain how trickery, deception and impersonation have nothing at all to do with the scientific import of Turing's criterion (Harnad 1989, 1991). AI is not a party game. The game was just a metaphor. The real point of the TT is that if we had a pen-pal whom we had corresponded with for a lifetime, we would never need to have seen him to infer that he had a mind. So if a machine pen-pal could do the same thing, it would be arbitrary to deny it had a mind just because it was a machine. That's all there is to it!
This entirely valid methodological point of Turing's is based on the "other minds" problem (the problem of how I can know that anyone else but me actually has a mind, actually thinks, actually has intelligence or knowledge -- these all come to the same thing): It is arbitrary to ask for more from a machine than I ask from a person, just because it's a machine (especially since no one knows yet what either a person or a machine REALLY is). So if the pen-pal TT is enough to allow us to correctly infer that a real person has a mind, then it must by the same token be enough to allow us to make the same inference about a computer, given that the two are totally indistinguishable to us (not just for a 5-minute party trick or an annual contest, but, in principle, for a lifetime). Neither the appearance of the candidate nor any facts about biology play any role in my judgment about my human pen pal, so there is no reason the same should not be true of my TT-indistinguishable machine pen-pal.


well there you have it pretty much in a nut shell..... From my own personl obsevations which I know are not inclusive of every higher school. I in the past was involved in an A.I. group at U.C.I. it speant most of it's time on hyperbolic crap!! learning and discussing theory, not much time if any was actually spent on true lab research. I hate theroy.. all theory is is what someone "thinks" might be an answer.. in true science we know theory can never be called law,, unfortunately since modern science has decided to portray some of it's pet theoris off to the general populace as law, the old true definition of pure science has been diluted.. smoething is only true scientific law when it can be PROVED in the lab..... what we are all doing here is real true honest Lab work,, we are taking out theroies, applying them in a real world enviornment and seeing if they "fly" so to speak.. Hal and his decewndant's(others created from taking what is learned from Hal) I believe will eventually pass that test and then some. Hal is not being developed just to pass that test....He is being developed to be a practicle tool. some of the other A.I. attempts and bots are being developed just to pass that test..

 The reason most Human type A.I. devolopment is happening from people like us and not in universities is simply a money matter... They cannot get funding to do reaserch for such a small prize payoff.. I am happy many of us are doing this for the sake of A.I. and not just money...
well any way my opinions...
[8D]
crunch

« Last Edit: December 21, 2004, 07:14:55 pm by crunch »
Crunch

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CoCoKid

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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2004, 12:41:56 am »
Thanks, but what I was referring to is the continuing creative direction toward the human being. Yes, your points are valid, and just because I could be fooled by a chatbot... believing it was a real person still does not create artificial intellegence.

I understand why the connection is made to humans, but I don't think that the connection to humans is necessary as I was explaing in the post. It just needs to contain the two words, one of which is already attained, "Artificial". The intellegence part is yet to come.

My point was that most appraoches to AI are with Human Intellegence in mind. Intellegence exists everywhere, from humans to animals to even micro-organizms. Broadening the picture surely can't hurt in the search for true AI, nor can narrowing the picture as I was explaining in the post you are referring to.

Carrying on a conversation is not AI, but it's getting there [^]

Since we are on the topic of fooling another person with a chatbot, and since that seems to be the achieved goal by some, let me give you my insane idea for creating better conversational power for Hal.

Hehe... You will all think I'm crazy, but I think the current approach is good, but it needs a twist. I know that many people have had many theories about how to improve Hal... some really far fetched and others we still look at today and continually incorperate.
My theory on the approach to Artificial Conversation would be to have Hal be the judge and then WE correct him. Currently, we can sit and tell Hal what we want him to know and say, but we have to do this for every little thing. It takes forever and Hal doesn't care either way. He will wait for you to input and if your input is casual conversation, he will reply. If your input is in the form of programming, Hal will then try and make the connection, sometimes even asking, when it comes to "Like" topics or when Hal needs additional information.

My view of the way it should work, and like I said, you may think I'm crazy, is to give Hal casual input and have Hal break it down right there by asking relationships to the words, meanings, associations, etc...
Of course, this would not be in a normal chat mode, but it could be turned on for power learning. With the routines that are already programmed into Hal, and new routines for this, I think they would work very well, hand in hand.

So now when you say, "I have a doctors appointment today at 10am", Hal can then ask for a breakdown of the sentence structure (ie.. verbs, nouns, present tense, past tense, etc...).
Hal could then start making his own opinions, using fault tolerence patterns and all previous conversations concerning sentence and word structures.
Of course, you would still have the final say for verification and explainations so that he doesn't learn the wrong things, but even this would be quicker and more challanging for you and him. Eventually learning the rules, Hal could then be even more "Human Like" in conversing.
Given enough examples and lessons, Hal could almost become the expert on conversations. If these power sessions were stored and used by Hal for future analysis, they would eventually help Hal to form conclusions without your help.
This is were the depositories come in that we have discussed in other threads. Depositories for Hal databases have been discussed and I agree that it's not a good idea to share these, because the most you could hope for, would be several bots that all conversed the same and knew the same things.
However, depositories for the power, fault tolerence data would be benificial to everyone, because the fault tolerence routines to get to the conclusions of "My Doctors Appointment" would be almost the same as the conclusions drawn regarding someone else's "Wedding Party Rehearsal". With Hal being able to read the power session of the "My Doctors Appointment" and comparing it to "Wedding Party Rehearsal", he would have gained that much more understanding of the sentences and at the same time, learned of a new event and new words, "Wedding Party Rehearsal".

For all I know, this my even be how Hal works currently, with the exception of intense Q and A sessions.

I know, it even confuses me sometimes and I can't really explain things very well. But like I said, you might think I'm crazy but this is what I see as a quicker, more powerful open source colaboraration of learning. If Hal can compare learning techniques rather than actual learned data, then Hal can only become better at carrying on conversations and none of our bots become corrupted with useless learned data that someone may have supplied.

Unfortunately, I know nothing about VB. I have a good understanding of programming in general, but I gave it up years ago when the language I programmed in and became very proficient in, was wiped from the face of the earth [:(]

I guess I would like to start programming again, but at my age, and my schedule, I can't seem to find time to eat and sleep, let alone start learning a language.

Besides, this probably only makes sense to me in my little world [:)]

Personally, myself... I would be happier power learning Hal rather than sitting and carrying on conversations about the weather and whatever comes to mind, but then that's not really how Hal was designed to work. He was designed to be an Immediate assistant and will learn slowly as you go which is also good.

Hal is fine the way he is now and he only gets better, so I don't complain [:)]